Absurdities of so called science

[Jester4kicks]

Indeed, you are correct --- that was an oversight on my part --- sorry about that.

1. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created third heaven
b. god created earth
c. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
d. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
e. god created starsand planets

Nice catch ---

No problem that's why I wanted to clear it up.

I still need you to clarify something for me. Is "second heaven" space? I'm still confused about where space entered the picture.

Here is the order, so far. I also included my questions about the creation of space and the transition from heaven to space below.


1. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created third heaven
b. god created earth
c. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
d. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
e. god created second heaven, and created stars and planets within it

2. ~6,000 years ago;
a. God "opened" his hand, and stretched everything out to (basically) where it is today


There is one piece that I wasn't sure where to place. If everything existed in the "medium" of heaven, when did god make space itself, and when did everything get placed in it? I thought it might go in the "in the palm" part... but you stated light, at that time, was not traveling through space, but rather through the medium of heaven.

Maybe it goes before #2? I thought about putting it there, but then I wasn't sure when the transition occurred between everything existing in the "medium" of heaven, and then existing in the "medium" of space.

 

[Jester4kicks]

But this gets into what I think is going to be Jester's whole point --- that anything moving faster than C would be subject to the Lorenz Contraction.

If it's of any comfort, AV, I promise you that is not where I'm going with this.

At the moment, I'm just trying to understand the order that everything happened in. I've come to realize that I previously did not understand your position on the matter, so I'm trying to get a better grasp of it.

 

[AV1611VET]

1. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created third heaven
b. god created earth
c. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
d. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
e. god created second heaven, and created stars and planets within it

Here's the order --- Third Heaven --- then, into the palm of His hand:

1. Earth
2. Light
3. First Heaven = earth's atmosphere
4. Second Heaven = outer space

Light, inside the palm of His hand, is traveling at the speed of His will.

Exactly how big the plam of his hand is, I don't know --- it could be 50 light years --- or it could be 50[sup]50[/sup] light years.

If it's of any comfort, AV, I promise you that is not where I'm going with this.

No problem.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Here's the order --- Third Heaven --- then, into the palm of His hand:

1. Earth
2. Light
3. First Heaven = earth's atmosphere
4. Second Heaven = outer space

Light, inside the palm of His hand, is traveling at the speed of His will.

Exactly how big the plam of his hand is, I don't know --- it could be 50 light years --- or it could be 50[sup]50[/sup] light years.

Ok, so I've posted the most current order below (according to what I've gathered from you).

I'm still a little hung up on something. If he created light separate from the stars themselves... at what point did the stars start producing the light? Now, I don't want you to think I'm trying to trap you, so I will openly ask that I'm curious because we still haven't clarified when the light changed from traveling in heaven to traveling in space.

Furthermore, you keep removing step 2 (step 3 now)... is that because I'm incorrect on the placement in the order of things, or because you disagree with the timing? Could you tell me when it was that god stretched everything out, as you previously described?


1. god created third heaven

2. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created earth
b. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
c. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
d. god created second heaven (space), and createdstars and planets within it

3. ~6,000 years ago;
a. God "opened" his hand, and stretched everything out to (basically) where it is today

 

[AV1611VET]

If he created light separate from the stars themselves... at what point did the stars start producing the light?

The moment they were created.

Furthermore, you keep removing step 2 (step 3 now)... is that because I'm incorrect on the placement in the order of things, or because you disagree with the timing?

You've got the order correct now:

1. god created third heaven

2. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created earth
b. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
c. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
d. god created second heaven (space), and createdstars and planets within it

---

Could you tell me when it was that god stretched everything out, as you previously described?

When He finished His creation --- Genesis 31.

 

[Jester4kicks]

The moment they were created.

Ok good. So then I need you to clarify the next point for me... what "medium" did the light from the stars travel in? I realize that all of this occured in the palm of god's hand.... but you said he created space (second heaven) and created the stars and planets in it. So... was the light from those stars traveling through the medium of space inside his palm... or was it still only traveling through the medium of heaven? (In which case, how did it get from the stars that he created in space, back into the "medium" of heaven?)

You've got the order correct now:

---When He finished His creation --- Genesis 31.

When was that?



Here's the current order again:

1. god created third heaven

2. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created earth
b. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
c. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
d. god created second heaven (space), and created stars and planets within it

3. ~(To be determined) years ago;
a. God "opened" his hand, and stretched everything out to (basically) where it is today

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

How big is the palm of god's hand?

 

[dad]

no assumptions. Its math. 1+1 is 2 and the universe is a very old universe.

Thinking that 1+1 is 2 makes the universe old is a mistaken notion. Even if we use bigger numbers. You guys crack me up.

 

[Jester4kicks]

How big is the palm of god's hand?

What is the logical purpose to such a question?

 

[Jester4kicks]

---When He finished His creation --- Genesis 31.

One quick little addition AV... I know I said you didn't have to cite verses... but could you double-check this citation? I looked up to be certain, and Genesis 31 doesn't seem to have anything to do with god stretching everything out into place.

 

[dad]

Very good.

Now, with those factors in mind, let's add in the maximum age of the light we are currently viewing. I'm going to default to you on this one, because we are still talking about your proposition here.

To that end, how old is the universe? It doesn't have to be exact, but I don't want to cite one number and upset you if that number is incorrect. As you can tell, if the universe is 6000 years old, then the light we are currently observing can only be 6000 years old.

Now, I understand that this might be one of those points we get hung up on... so I want to make sure we understand each other before we move on. As I stated, I need the age of the universe (according to the bible), and I need to make sure you understand why that age is important because it tells us the maximum "age" of the light we are viewing.

Please let me know if there are any questions.

Mistaken premise! You need a same state in the past, for the light that reaches here, now us to be the measure of past light. That moots your every point so far.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Mistaken premise! You need a same state in the past, for the light that reaches us to be guaged by our light. That moots your every point so far.

Not interested, dad. I'm actually enjoying my conversation with AV for the moment.

 

[dad]

Angels I would assume are capable of teleportion. You know, being magical and all. Light isn't, as far as I know.

If magical is something other than what science sees here and now, of course former and future light is magical. I don't see someone speaking light into being. I don't see a star being made, billions or millions of light years as light now moves, away, and shining on a garden?

 

[dad]

Not interested, dad. I'm actually enjoying my conversation with AV for the moment.

No problem, I am talking over your head for the lurkers or those able to make honest debate anyhow.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok good. So then I need you to clarify the next point for me... what "medium" did the light from the stars travel in?

It traveled in the medium of Heaven until it was encased in outer space when God created Second Heaven.

Here's a crude example --- not exactly the way it happened , but close enough that you get the idea.

Picture someone shooting an arrow with a string attached to the nock end, and the other end of the string attached to --- say --- a baseball.

The arrow is moving fast, until it encounters --- and has to account for --- the weight of the ball.

The arrow is now moving much slower, pulling the ball along with it.

Let the arrow represent the leading edge of light, created in Genesis 1:3.
Let the baseball represent the star, created in Genesis 1:16.
Let the string represent the beam of light from the observer (arrow) to the source (baseball).

Let the target represent the earth, and that should [hopefully] clarify the issue.

Now --- let's look at it another way --- since my example doesn't really answer your question:

Picture shooting an arrow (no strings, no nothing attached), then instantly snapping your fingers and the arrow is encased in molasses --- still moving toward its target, but much more slowly now.

The arrow represents light going through the medium of Third Heaven, the molasses represents Second Heaven.

 

[AV1611VET]

How big is the palm of god's hand?

1163

 

[AV1611VET]

One quick little addition AV... I know I said you didn't have to cite verses... but could you double-check this citation? I looked up to be certain, and Genesis 31 doesn't seem to have anything to do with god stretching everything out into place.

I cited Genesis 1:31 as when He finished His creation.

Isaiah 40 says He then stretched it to its current dimensions --- and is still doing so today.

Note: He may have stretched it in a moment of time as a one-time act, and it could still be expanding today, but I don't want to get into that paradox here.

 

[dad]

You dismiss any evidence that you don't personally like. End of story. There is no evidence to support your own position, so you simply hand-wave away all the evidence that contradicts it. The hilarious part is that you dismiss that evidence based on the idea that your own conclusion is already correct.

Old. Tired. Boring. Put the foil hat back on and tell us when the CIA starts coming after you.


Oh... and you STILL have not provided any evidence for the following claim... although you've had no trouble ignoring it.

Science can't go there, Only the word of God can.

 

[dad]

I didn't define it because it's irrelevant to the question.

A photon, by the way, is a quantum of the electromagnetic field. Mathematically, it is very explicitly and exactly defined. It's not feasible to teach a course in quantum mechanics to an unwilling student over a forum, so I'm not going to go into more detail here.


Look, this "different past" stuff is your theory. You do the work in determining what it implies. That means you should learn for yourself what a photon is defined as, and make use of that information in the context of your theory.

Don't expect others to do your own work for you. Or to take you seriously if you have yet to do said work.

Photons haven't much to do with any diffferent state. They have to do with here and now. Obviously, you don't really have a handle on it, because what we know, we can explain, even in simple terms.

Here is someone's attempt at putting it simply.

"Lasers can ionise some atoms but you are right in that such ionisation is not relevant to the formation of photons.

Photons come out of atoms when an electrons loses energy. As it loses energy the electron shifts ( we like to think, downwards). That shift seems to shake the space around. That bit of shake, moves the next bit of space, which moves the next bit and the moving bit IS the photon. It really isn't anything, just a shifting patch of space - a piece of energy.

This is really, really hard. If you keep thinking on it and working on it, then you might be the one to finally explain what is really going on to the rest of us. I'm not being smart about this - nobody knows how to put it any better than I just did and all know that that wasn't very helpful.
Good luck Source(s):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090304204832AA78eKn

Seems to me likr the best ans simplest reply would be, we don't really know'!

Now, if that is where science is at, (?) then why expect it to define former light??

 

[dad]

And here I point out supernova 1987A once again. If the speed of light were constant, then this supernova went off some 168,000 years ago. If the speed of light were faster in the past, then the supernova had to go off before 168,000 years ago.

No, actually. There is more than the speed of present light at work here. Unless, of course you prove a same state past, and I know you can't do that. I can tell you that is not all wrapped in a neat little science package as you seem to think it is.