Absurdities of so called science

[AV1611VET]

Interesting -- seeing as how outer space is a complete vacuum, with absolutely nothing to impede the light's movement, that would mean that Heaven would have to consist of -- less than nothing?

Remember this verse, Nathan?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

How did the angels move that fast?

Going from earth to Heaven, or, put another way, First Heaven to Third Heaven in a moment of time?

If angels could move that fast, why couldn't light?

Was it dad that said, "Light moved at the speed of God's will"?

I like that --- that's pretty good.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Nope --- so far, we haven't discussed anything that needs to have Embedded Age invoked as an explanation.

We're talking light, not rocks, and so Embedded Age does not apply.Here's one explanation --- and I repeat one ad lib explanation for this --- and I'm making this up, too ---

We can see light from more than 6000 light years away because light traveled faster in Heaven, than in outer space.

Let me explain:

When God created the universe, He created it into the palm of His hand, and according to Genesis 1, the order of Creation goes as follows:

1. Heaven
2. Earth
3. Light

The source of that light, the stars themselves, don't even exist yet, and won't be spoken into existence for several hours.

So what is that light doing?

It is well on its way toward the earth, moving much faster through Heaven's "purer" medium.

Remember, according to Einstein, light is affected by gravity, and as such, gravity doesn't exist.

And even if gravity did exist, the only thing in all of existence with mass so far is the earth.

Sorry, I'm afraid you lost me toward the end there. If the statement I bolded from your quote is necessary to your explanation, could you please clarify it? It sounds as though you are saying "A is affected by B, therefore B doesn't exist". The statement makes no sense. My apologies if I'm just missing the intended meaning.

On the plus side, I now understand why the two options I presented to you were not the only two options you saw possible. My apologies for that. As I stated, it was not my intention to create a false dichotomy.

Based on the post above, it sounds like you just believe that the speed of light was faster at some point in the past because it was moving through the "medium" of "heaven".

Now... here's what I don't understand... if the speed of light was faster in the past... that actually makes the universe OLDER. Much older.

Here's a video that explains it. Could you tell me how you resolve the conflict?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRmJbP25m-Y

 

[gaara4158]

Remember this verse, Nathan?How did the angels move that fast?

Going from earth to Heaven, or, put another way, First Heaven to Third Heaven in a moment of time?

If angels could move that fast, why couldn't light?

Was it dad that said, "Light moved at the speed of God's will"?

I like that --- that's pretty good.

Angels I would assume are capable of teleportion. You know, being magical and all. Light isn't, as far as I know.

 

[AV1611VET]

Here's a video that explains it. Could you tell me how you resolve the conflict?

Okay --- I watched the video and took notes --- let's resolve the conflict, shall we?

First of all, the emphasis has shifted from stars to a supernova.

I'll admit --- even I'm guilty of doing that, as you started out this whole conversation with questions about galaxies, and I shifted the emphasis to stars --- but now it looks like you want to talk about the supernova of one particular star.

Before we discuss something exploding, let's discuss how it got there in the first place --- deal?

At 1:28, he says this:

Therefore, using trigonometric calculations (which I'll spare you), we place the supernova's distance at 168,000 light-years.

So far, so good --- but then he says this:

This means that the universe is AT LEAST 168,000 years old.

No, it doesn't --- it means that God placed that star there when He configured the universe.

168,000 light years ≠ 168,000 years.

Moving on, he says:

This star exploded:

1. 168,000 years before 1987.
2. 32,000 years after modern humans evolved.
3. 162,000 years before creationists say God made the Universe.

And I say:

1. Baloney.
2. Baloney.
3. Baloney.

He is assuming that at the time that star was placed where it was, that's the time its light started out for the earth.

Now comes this doosey:

What is the mechanism that caused the speed of light to decay?

THEY HAVE NONE.

Well, I'm not a YEC, so I can't speak for them. I don't know what their position [no pun intended] is on this, but I can surmise that the "mechanism" that caused C to "decay" is God.

And I put "decay" in quotes, as I don't believe it decayed. One moment it is moving at the speed of the will of God, the next moment, it was moving at C --- (IOW, zero deacceleration).

At 2:47, he says this:

If the supernova is 168,000 light-years away, then for the light to get here in 6000 years it must have traveled an average of 28 times its current speed.

Again, if the supernova occurred BEFORE God began stretching the universe, then the star was much, much closer.

Before this guy takes on a YEC, he needs to do some more homework --- don't you think?

ETA: And he needs to quit assuming that stars came BEFORE starlight.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Okay --- I watched the video and took notes --- let's resolve the conflict, shall we?

First of all, the emphasis has shifted from stars to a supernova.

I'll admit --- even I'm guilty of doing that, as you started out this whole conversation with questions about galaxies, and I shifted the emphasis to stars --- but now it looks like you want to talk about the supernova of one particular star.

Before we discuss something exploding, let's discuss how it got there in the first place --- deal?

...

At 2:47, he says this:Again, if the supernova occurred BEFORE God began stretching the universe, then the star was much, much closer.

Before this guy takes on a YEC, he needs to do some more homework --- don't you think?

ETA: And he needs to quit assuming that stars came BEFORE starlight.

Sorry for editing down your post AV, but I don't believe it would be productive to rail on the other information presented in the video. I agree that he made some powerful assertions, and I understand that you don't agree with them. My purpose to posting the video was simply to focus on the problem of a faster speed of light in the past.

Now, to that end, I think we have actually made a little more progress here. It seems like you are presenting somewhat of a synthesis of the options we have discussed so far.

Please correct me if I am wrong, as it is not my intent to mistate your position. Currently, it sounds like you are saying that god created the universe in the plam of his hand, that he created light before the stars themselves, that the light was traveling through the medium of heaven, not space, and that he stretched all of space out to (basically) its current position.

If that is correct, could you please provide me with the basic order of operations on that? (A step-by-step if you will)

Here's what it currently sounds like, in order (and please feel free to move things around or add things in here and there):

1. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created heaven
b. god created earth
c. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
d. god created stars and other stellar objects/gases

2. ~6,000 years ago;
a. God "opened" his hand, and stretched everything out to (basically) where it is today


Once again, I'm not sure if that is the order you are proposing... I simply put a few pieces in the order you seemed to present them in.

There is one piece that I wasn't sure where to place. If everything existed in the "medium" of heaven, when did god make space itself, and when did everything get placed in it? I thought it might go in the "in the palm" part... but you stated light, at that time, was not traveling through space, but rather through the medium of heaven.

Maybe it goes before #2? I thought about putting it there, but then I wasn't sure when the transition occurred between everything existing in the "medium" of heaven, and then existing in the "medium" of space.

 

[mpok1519]

advice; never take someone seriously who spells bologna 'baloney', especially when it comes to astro-physics.

lol heck, I wouldnt listen to them about theology either.

 

[AV1611VET]

If that is correct, could you please provide me with the basic order of operations on that? (A step-by-step if you will)

QV please --- 7.

It goes like this:

In the beginning God created the heaven...

This is Heaven Proper --- Third Heaven --- where His throne is, the Crystal Sea, mansions, streets of gold, etc.

... and the earth.

Now the first object in the universe with mass shows up --- the earth --- right in the palm of God's hand.

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

Now comes His next act of creation:

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The Electromagnetic Spectrum --- moving at the speed of God's will --- (28C, according to the video).

Now His next act of creation:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

This is the atmosphere --- Second Heaven.

Now --- skipping the third day of creation --- as it is the dry land appearing w/angiosperms --- we come to His next act of creation:

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

This is where He makes Second Heaven --- with the stars and planets.

Notice in verse 17 that He "sets" them in [second] heaven --- not just randomly --- but each one in an assigned area of space.

 

[mpok1519]

What university did you graduate from AV? What was your degree in? Was it an associates, bachelors, or masters? What was your gpa? Did you join any clubs or fraternaties?

 

[AV1611VET]

advice; never take someone seriously who spells bologna 'baloney', especially when it comes to astro-physics.

lol heck, I wouldnt listen to them about theology either.

Qv please --- 38 --- 7.

 

[mpok1519]

okay, you did spell bologna right. =)

 

[AV1611VET]

What university did youraduae from AV? What was your degree in? Was it an associates, bachelors, or masters? What was your gpa? Did you join any clubs or fraternaties?

AA in Business Administration --- Summa Cum Laude --- no frats --- member: USCF --- failed test for Mensa by 2 points.

 

[mpok1519]

so we should believe your thoughts on astro physics because of your associates in business administration at southern cali fresno?

 

[AV1611VET]

so we should believe your thoughts on astro physics because of your associates in business administration at southern cali fresno?

Absolutely!

Good job deciphering my post ---

 

[mpok1519]

Absolutely!

Good job deciphering my post ---

Your sarcasm points out that even you believe people should not believe you. Your sarcasm indicates that you are very aware of your ignorance to how the natural world and astro-physics' mechanisms operate.

 

[Jester4kicks]

QV please --- 7.

It goes like this:This is Heaven Proper --- Third Heaven --- where His throne is, the Crystal Sea, mansions, streets of gold, etc.Now the first object in the universe with mass shows up --- the earth --- right in the palm of God's hand. Now comes His next act of creation:The Electromagnetic Spectrum --- moving at the speed of God's will --- (28C, according to the video).

Now His next act of creation:This is the atmosphere --- Second Heaven.

Now --- skipping the third day of creation --- as it is the dry land appearing w/angiosperms --- we come to His next act of creation:This is where He makes Second Heaven --- with the stars and planets.

Notice in verse 17 that He "sets" them in [second] heaven --- not just randomly --- but each one in an assigned area of space.

You don't have to worry about quoting the actual verses AV, I believe you. It doesn't serve any purpose for you to misquote the bible, so i have no reason to think the information you are providing is anything other than what the bible has to say on the matter.

I'm a bit confused about the portion of your post the I bolded. It looks like you said he created second heaven twice.... was that a typo or am I misunderstanding something? Please clarify so I can fit it into the list.


I've edited the order with the additional information you provided... could you please review the section of the post below so we can try to get this order fixed up?

Here's what it currently sounds like, in order (and please feel free to move things around or add things in here and there):

1. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created third heaven
b. god created earth
c. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
d. god created the second heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
e. god created stars, planets, and other stellar objects/gases

2. ~6,000 years ago;
a. God "opened" his hand, and stretched everything out to (basically) where it is today


Once again, I'm not sure if that is the order you are proposing... I simply put a few pieces in the order you seemed to present them in.

There is one piece that I wasn't sure where to place. If everything existed in the "medium" of heaven, when did god make space itself, and when did everything get placed in it? I thought it might go in the "in the palm" part... but you stated light, at that time, was not traveling through space, but rather through the medium of heaven.

Maybe it goes before #2? I thought about putting it there, but then I wasn't sure when the transition occurred between everything existing in the "medium" of heaven, and then existing in the "medium" of space.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Sorry, AV -- you've made a few too many extrabiblical assumptions on this one -- one more and the KJVO Police are going to confiscate your Literalist Decoder Ring.

Remember this verse, Nathan?
How did the angels move that fast?

How fast, AV? All it says is that the Sons of God appeared before Him -- no mention of doing so at any kind of breakneck speed. For all you know, this might have been some sort of scheduled meeting.

"Ok, guys, remember that Tuesday's staff meeting's being moved to Thursday this week. We're repainting Third Heaven, so how about we meet somewhere on Earth? Atlantic Ocean's not being used, and Gabriel can bring his Jimmy Buffet CDs."

Going from earth to Heaven, or, put another way, First Heaven to Third Heaven in a moment of time?

Who said God was in "Third Heaven" at the time? Certainly not the Bible.

If angels could move that fast, why couldn't light?

Again, AV -- I don't see anything in there about the Angels travelling in a big hurry; all the story tells is when they arrived, not when they departed.

Was it dad that said, "Light moved at the speed of God's will"?

Doesn't everything?

Not sure why you'd want to invoke dad's blather to support your own -- but as long as you're going that route, why would you show such a low opinion of God and His first creations by limiting them all to (as dad would say) "paltry PO in-the-box" speeds?

The mythology clearly shows that God, and to a limited extent, His angels, can operate outside the bounds of physical laws, meaning that travelling faster than light (Einstein's top speed in the physical universe) would be no sweat to them.

But, as in all things involving theology, the question is never about what God could do, but about what He would do. And while faster-than-light travel (indeed, instantaneous travel) is certainly within His power, and certainly has its uses, the idea that He mucked around with the speed of light itself serves no purpose except to stroke your ego and give you the illusion of scientific knowledge.

And frankly, I think God's got better things to do with His omnipotence.

I like that --- that's pretty good.

You would.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm a bit confused about the portion of your post the I bolded. It looks like you said he created second heaven twice.... was that a typo or am I misunderstanding something?

Indeed, you are correct --- that was an oversight on my part --- sorry about that.

1. In the palm of his hand;
a. god created third heaven
b. god created earth
c. god created light (traveling at the speed of his will)
d. god created the first heaven, which is the earth's atmosphere
e. god created starsand planets

Nice catch ---

 

[mpok1519]

Even you admit we shouldnt believe you. Even youadmit you don't believe what you tell us

lol

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry, AV -- you've made a few too many extrabiblical assumptions on this one --

No problem --- I'm addressing a video that's full of mistaken assumptions.

How fast, AV? All it says is that the Sons of God appeared before Him -- no mention of doing so any any kind of breakneck speed. For all you know, this might have been some sort of scheduled meeting.

Then try this one ---

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Better?

... God, and to a limited extent, His angels, can operate outside the bounds of physical laws, meaning that travelling faster than light (Einstein's top speed in the physical universe) would be no sweat to them.

But this gets into what I think is going to be Jester's whole point --- that anything moving faster than C would be subject to the Lorenz Contraction.

But, as in all things involving theology, the question is never about what God could do, but about what He would do. And while faster-than-light travel (indeed, instantaneous travel) is certainly within His power, and certainly has its uses, the idea that He mucked around with the speed of light itself serves no purpose...

Again, I have to disagree. As I showed, God "set" those stars in their places in a certain order --- not just randomly.

And as Kenneth Fleming points out in his book:

... God placed the constellations in an order that pictographically shows the Plan of Salvation.

 

[MoonLancer]

No problem --- I'm addressing a video that's full of mistaken assumptions.

no assumptions. Its math. 1+1 is 2 and the universe is a very old universe.