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Abstinence

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christalee4

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cameronw said:
Good post. We don't hold people accountable any more. We say well their going to do it any way. People need to be taught again that they are accountable for their actions. We give people a pass and just say don't do it but if you do well here. I have done the same with my kids but I reinforce the Abstinace issue. Yesterday was AIDS day. I told my kids that if they waited till they got married then they didn't have to worry about getting AIDS.

-cw

I absolutely agree with the ABC philosophy - you've got all of your bases covered there.

However, I will respectfully disagree with your statement there Cameron, as I have highlighted it. I am sure that you will provide more information other than the "wait 'til you get married and you don't have to worry." The highest transmission rate among African AIDS cases is between married couples. We don't live in a perfect world and we should encourage our children to understand that before they have sex, they should use a condom, if they are not using a condom (say if they are married and do not believe in using birth control), then they and their spouses to be should get tested.
 
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TeddyKGB said:
Abstinance-only = Let's pretend that animals haven't been evolving for hundreds of millions of years as little more than glorified sex-machines
Huzzah!!

They tried abstinance-only education in our schools and it failed MISERABLY. The fact is that AOE (abstinence only education) just doesnt work, its been proven hundreds of time that it either back-fires or fails.
 
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Mariette

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I think abstinence coupled with sexual education and precautions is the best bet. Teens will experiment with sexuality, that's a given. It's hard to expect them not to when the world we live in is so engrossed with sexuality. Not that I'm saying sexuality and being sexually aware of oneself is a bad thing, but everything for a time and place, you know?

Abstinence does work, but not all the time. So because of that I think alternative methods need to be found.

However; telling kids not to have sex and then handing out funky colored condoms is sending mixed messages.

On the topic of AIDS, I'm currently reading a book on viruses and the current material is on HIV. It's amazing what scientists have found out about the history of the AIDs virus, and it's close cousins HIV-1 and SIV (not a human disease).
Even if you get married, you can contract AIDS. There's more ways then sex and needles to get AIDs.

Such as, touching blood from someone who was HIV positive and having a cut on your hand (even a tiny one) or anything else that would lead directly into your body (such as touching food or whatnot) could lead you open to infection. Needles, either for drug use or if you work in a hospital can make you prone to AIDs. If you accidentally stick yourself with a needle that's been used on someone who is HIV positive..Or your husband/wife could have done the above, have it not show up on tests and you could still contract it from them. HIV does not always show up right away in testing.

So, always be careful around ANY body fluid that isn't your own. Sweat, blood, sperm, etc. Be careful of anyone who is bleeding, make sure not to touch or help the person unless you have protective gloves. Be careful of needles...anywhere.

Eep, I blabbed. Im sorry :(
 
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butterfoot

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christalee4 said:
I absolutely agree with the ABC philosophy - you've got all of your bases covered there.

However, I will respectfully disagree with your statement there Cameron, as I have highlighted it. I am sure that you will provide more information other than the "wait 'til you get married and you don't have to worry." The highest transmission rate among African AIDS cases is between married couples. We don't live in a perfect world and we should encourage our children to understand that before they have sex, they should use a condom, if they are not using a condom (say if they are married and do not believe in using birth control), then they and their spouses to be should get tested.


True if my son is a virgin and loves his fiancee and she is not a virgin then by all means she should be tested before the marriage.

But if he waits and he finds someone who waits then neither will have anything to worry about.

-cw
 
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ChristianCenturion

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christalee4 said:
I absolutely agree with the ABC philosophy - you've got all of your bases covered there.

However, I will respectfully disagree with your statement there Cameron, as I have highlighted it. I am sure that you will provide more information other than the "wait 'til you get married and you don't have to worry." The highest transmission rate among African AIDS cases is between married couples. We don't live in a perfect world and we should encourage our children to understand that before they have sex, they should use a condom, if they are not using a condom (say if they are married and do not believe in using birth control), then they and their spouses to be should get tested.

Interesting. I looked for statistics on African exposure and I couldn't find anything that covered a distinction between married and unmarried. Would you be so kind as to link the source of evidence for your statement?

That aside, it doesn't address the issue of abstinence before marriage and faithfulness during marriage. I don't believe that the assertion by cameronw was that marriage in and of itself i.e. the ceremony prevents AIDS or heals and infected person, but what the corresponding and presumed behavior that marriage is SUPPOSE to mean. The irony of you mentioning that we do not live in a perfect world for one practice and ignoring the same application to the other practice is note worthy.
Just like it being impossible to force people to adhere to what abstinence and marriage is supposed to mean, it would equally be impossible to force people to consistently use some form prevention device taught in sex education or that training and provision of such equates adherence. I find such duplicity in objection and assertion common in this discussion.

Now, generally speaking:

As for discussing this topic on a Christian forum, it is well known that the Christian teaching on fornication and adultery is being against such immorality. The fact is that sin, while forgivable if repented, still has consequences; although, one should always leave room for God to move in His miraculous ways. Disbelief and doubt may rob oneself of a blessing.

Is abstinence what the world wants? No, it is offensive the the world and the unbeliever is driven by his/her desires. Should a Christian embrace abstinence? Most certainly, to do otherwise would be to have another master.

John 3:16-21
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

1 Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

1 John 2:17
The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

I find it a shame that instead of carrying out the Great Commission of preaching repentance and forgiveness, some that call themselves Christian embrace the pseudo-intellectual world's philosophy of hopelessness, slavery to sin and declare it is impossible to live pure, so "here" is how one can be disobedient to God and attempt to remove the consequences of sin.
 
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Electric Sceptic

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The tragic thing in the OP is that the US, with all its resources, instead of helping eradicate AIDS in Africa as it could, it using the opportunity to push a futile religious position. It's a similar mindset to the Abstinence Only crowd..."follow our moral position, and if you don't...well, you got what you deserve."
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Electric Sceptic said:
The tragic thing in the OP is that the US, with all its resources, instead of helping eradicate AIDS in Africa as it could, it using the opportunity to push a futile religious position. It's a similar mindset to the Abstinence Only crowd..."follow our moral position, and if you don't...well, you got what you deserve."

The inverse: Here is a Band-Aid instead of the cure.

BTW - You should look into who is devoting considerable resources, caring for the stricken, fighting AIDS, and taking in the orphans due to AIDS before spouting off rhetoric against the "religious positions".

IOW - the opportunity to show "how it is really to be done" has always been there, the alternative non-religious groups share in any "failure" opine. :doh:
 
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butterfoot

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Electric Sceptic said:
The tragic thing in the OP is that the US, with all its resources, instead of helping eradicate AIDS in Africa as it could, it using the opportunity to push a futile religious position. It's a similar mindset to the Abstinence Only crowd..."follow our moral position, and if you don't...well, you got what you deserve."


You know as much money is spent there on both Education about AIDS and also birth control and safe sex products it has to be the people of Africa that Ultimately have to help themselves. You can teach them all you want but if they don't want to follow what is being taught then it was all for naught.


-cw
 
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Electric Sceptic

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ChristianCenturion said:
BTW - You should look into who is devoting considerable resources, caring for the stricken, fighting AIDS, and taking in the orphans due to AIDS before spouting off rhetoric against the "religious positions".

IOW - the opportunity to show "how it is really to be done" has always been there, the alternative non-religious groups share in any "failure" opine. :doh:

cameronw said:
You know as much money is spent there on both Education about AIDS and also birth control and safe sex products it has to be the people of Africa that Ultimately have to help themselves. You can teach them all you want but if they don't want to follow what is being taught then it was all for naught.
The US has pledged $15 billion to help fight AIDS in Africa. Yet, rather than allow that huge amount of money to be spent in the most effective ways, it puts restrictions on how the money can be spent - $10 billion of it MUST be spent on abstinence education, none of it can be spent aiding any organisations that even counsel about abortion, none of it can be spent on providing clean needles. At least the first two of these restrictions are driven by the religious right. Instead of the whole $15 billion going to the most effective methods of stopping AIDS, most of it goes to methods proven inneffectiive, and ALL of it can't go to the methods proven most effective. While (of course) the US is to be applauded for giving ANY money at all, there is no conclusion possible other than that it has 'hamstrung' its donation, for primarily religous reasons, so that rather than do all it could, a good amount of it will be spent 'preaching', rather than helping.

I find that detestable.
 
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butterfoot

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Electric Sceptic said:
The US has pledged $15 billion to help fight AIDS in Africa. Yet, rather than allow that huge amount of money to be spent in the most effective ways, it puts restrictions on how the money can be spent - $10 billion of it MUST be spent on abstinence education, none of it can be spent aiding any organisations that even counsel about abortion, none of it can be spent on providing clean needles. At least the first two of these restrictions are driven by the religious right. Instead of the whole $15 billion going to the most effective methods of stopping AIDS, most of it goes to methods proven inneffectiive, and ALL of it can't go to the methods proven most effective. While (of course) the US is to be applauded for giving ANY money at all, there is no conclusion possible other than that it has 'hamstrung' its donation, for primarily religous reasons, so that rather than do all it could, a good amount of it will be spent 'preaching', rather than helping.

I find that detestable.


You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


-cw
 
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butterfoot

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Electric Sceptic said:
Nice evasion of the issue.


Its not an evasion. It was a metaphor. Meaning that you can educate the african people all you want to and spend all the money in the world but if they aren't willing to change themselves it will be all for naught.


-cw
 
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Electric Sceptic

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cameronw said:
Its not an evasion. It was a metaphor. Meaning that you can educate the african people all you want to and spend all the money in the world but if they aren't willing to change themselves it will be all for naught.
I know what it was. The question is what you educate them with. What you say is certainly correct; so which behaviour are they more likely to change? The WAY they have sex - by wearing condoms and the like - or the fact that they have sex at all? The US, by their policy, is dictating that unless they change the fact that they have (non-monogamous) sex at all...tough. You deserve what you get. A policy that WORKS is getting them to change they way they have sex, by education and condom provision. But the US doesn't want to be in that. Instead, the US wants to spend 10 billion on a tactic that's been proven not only not to work, but to be actually harmful.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Electric Sceptic said:
The US has pledged $15 billion to help fight AIDS in Africa. Yet, rather than allow that huge amount of money to be spent in the most effective ways, it puts restrictions on how the money can be spent - $10 billion of it MUST be spent on abstinence education, none of it can be spent aiding any organisations that even counsel about abortion, none of it can be spent on providing clean needles. At least the first two of these restrictions are driven by the religious right. Instead of the whole $15 billion going to the most effective methods of stopping AIDS, most of it goes to methods proven inneffectiive, and ALL of it can't go to the methods proven most effective. While (of course) the US is to be applauded for giving ANY money at all, there is no conclusion possible other than that it has 'hamstrung' its donation, for primarily religous reasons, so that rather than do all it could, a good amount of it will be spent 'preaching', rather than helping.

I find that detestable.

A lot of "proven effective" and "proven ineffective" rubbish. In case you were unaware, the U.S.A. is not the only country in the world. :cry:
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Electric Sceptic said:
I know what it was. The question is what you educate them with. What you say is certainly correct; so which behaviour are they more likely to change? The WAY they have sex - by wearing condoms and the like - or the fact that they have sex at all? The US, by their policy, is dictating that unless they change the fact that they have (non-monogamous) sex at all...tough. You deserve what you get. A policy that WORKS is getting them to change they way they have sex, by education and condom provision. But the US doesn't want to be in that. Instead, the US wants to spend 10 billion on a tactic that's been proven not only not to work, but to be actually harmful.

:sigh: OK, go to the U.N. and set up funding for your Wanton Sex in the Face of AIDS Foundation. That way you and those that think condoms fix all problems can transport and distribute condoms throughout an entire continent from now until the Second Coming. After all, you can't have your plan failing because the person must decide how they are to even acquire food, water, clothing and shelter, but miraculously has money for all the condoms they want and it is sold right next to the rock down the footpath.

OH, and make sure you don't tell anyone about failure rates and make capitol punishment laws for those that don't use your plan continuously and perfectly. You can't have any slackers proving the alleged "proven effective" claims wrong. :doh:
 
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Electric Sceptic

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ChristianCenturion said:
A lot of "proven effective" and "proven ineffective" rubbish. In case you were unaware, the U.S.A. is not the only country in the world.
Thank you for pointing out the blindingly obvious.

ChristianCenturion said:
OK, go to the U.N. and set up funding for your Wanton Sex in the Face of AIDS Foundation.
No thanks. I'd prefer it if those countries with 15 billion dollars to spend set up useful methods of stopping AIDS, instead of taking the opportunity to preach inneffectively.

ChristianCenturion said:
That way you and those that think condoms fix all problems can transport and distribute condoms throughout an entire continent from now until the Second Coming.
I've never heard of anyone who thinks condoms fix all problems. Lots of people, however, think they are very effective in stopping AIDS transmission. Perhaps you weren't aware of that?

ChristianCenturion said:
After all, you can't have your plan failing because the person must decide how they are to even acquire food, water, clothing and shelter, but miraculously has money for all the condoms they want and it is sold right next to the rock down the footpath.
That's easy. Give the condoms out free. Next 'problem'?

ChristianCenturion said:
OH, and make sure you don't tell anyone about failure rates
Umm...no, telling them about failure rates (the truth, not the abstinence-only lies) is a part of educating them in their use.

ChristianCenturion said:
and make capitol punishment laws for those that don't use your plan continuously and perfectly.
What an idiotic thing to say.

ChristianCenturion said:
You can't have any slackers proving the alleged "proven effective" claims wrong.
Another idiotic thing to say. Is foolishness like this the best you have to offer?
 
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brightmorningstar

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Thanks for all the posts so far.



To Electric Skeptic,
The US has pledged $15 billion to help fight AIDS in Africa. Yet, rather than allow that huge amount of money to be spent in the most effective ways, it puts restrictions on how the money can be spent - $10 billion of it MUST be spent on abstinence education, none of it can be spent aiding any organisations that even counsel about abortion, none of it can be spent on providing clean needles.
Firstly if people abstain they won’t need abortions! If we have proper education about drugs and people don’t take drugs them then we don’t need needles for drugs, clean or otherwise and we don’t have people’s lives wrecked by drugs. The most effective way to stop AIDS through sex is ABC with the emphasis on ‘A’. Also $5 apparently can be spent on needles and condoms.
At least the first two of these restrictions are driven by the religious right.
So what? If they reduce AIDS who cares, the danger is having people who want sex and drugs and blaming people who wont give them more than $5 for needles and condoms to feed their habits.

Furthermore in societies where condoms and clean needles are widely available, not all use them!
I find that detestable.
Why? Do you want AIDS reduced or do you only want it reduced without affecting people sex and drug habits, I suggest the latter is less effective and more expensive.
 
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christalee4

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ChristianCenturion said:
Interesting. I looked for statistics on African exposure and I couldn't find anything that covered a distinction between married and unmarried. Would you be so kind as to link the source of evidence for your statement?

That aside, it doesn't address the issue of abstinence before marriage and faithfulness during marriage. I don't believe that the assertion by cameronw was that marriage in and of itself i.e. the ceremony prevents AIDS or heals and infected person, but what the corresponding and presumed behavior that marriage is SUPPOSE to mean. The irony of you mentioning that we do not live in a perfect world for one practice and ignoring the same application to the other practice is note worthy.
Just like it being impossible to force people to adhere to what abstinence and marriage is supposed to mean, it would equally be impossible to force people to consistently use some form prevention device taught in sex education or that training and provision of such equates adherence. I find such duplicity in objection and assertion common in this discussion.

Now, generally speaking:

As for discussing this topic on a Christian forum, it is well known that the Christian teaching on fornication and adultery is being against such immorality. The fact is that sin, while forgivable if repented, still has consequences; although, one should always leave room for God to move in His miraculous ways. Disbelief and doubt may rob oneself of a blessing.

Is abstinence what the world wants? No, it is offensive the the world and the unbeliever is driven by his/her desires. Should a Christian embrace abstinence? Most certainly, to do otherwise would be to have another master.

John 3:16-21
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

1 Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

1 John 2:17
The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

I find it a shame that instead of carrying out the Great Commission of preaching repentance and forgiveness, some that call themselves Christian embrace the pseudo-intellectual world's philosophy of hopelessness, slavery to sin and declare it is impossible to live pure, so "here" is how one can be disobedient to God and attempt to remove the consequences of sin.

You've made some wrongly misinterpreted assertions about my earlier posts, ending in a faith condemnation about "pseudo intellectual" Christians who don't carry out the Great Commission in the same high-minded (and I venture to say, just as 'pseudo-intellectually') and self-righteous manner that more "true and obedient" Christians obviously do.
http://www.unaids.org/epi2005/doc/EPIupdate2005_html_en/epi05_11_en.htm

Although statistics are not all present for each country in Africa and other Third World countries, AIDS remains to be primarily passed on through unprotected sex and hetersexual contact. Because many of the men have unprotected sex with both girlfriends, prostitutes and then their wives, HIV transmission and AIDS deaths have increased for women and children.

Abstinence, HIV education, promotion of marital faithfulness and use of condoms, has contributed to a few success stories of transmission reduction, in a few countries. http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm

As I have stated earlier, just throwing condoms and sexual information at kids, without teaching abstinence, control, and responsibility, is not giving young adults a foundation to build on. The job of parents is to provide the moral and religious base to process that information.

Lastly, thank God, Who gave man brains and the intellectual capacity to create better medicine and methods to prevent disease. If using condoms to prevent a mortal disease is being disobedient to God, then surely we sin by using any other education and medical treatment to prevent disease or pain from over-eating, smoking, lack of exercise and breathing in pollution.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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christalee4 said:
You've made some wrongly misinterpreted assertions about my earlier posts,
I take it that you didn't notice the "Now, generally speaking:"
Now that I have pointed out the separation between responding to what you posted and speaking generally, are you still making claims of what I allegedly misinterpreted?
ending in a faith condemnation about "pseudo intellectual" Christians who don't carry out the Great Commission in the same high-minded (and I venture to say, just as 'pseudo-intellectually') and self-righteous manner that more "true and obedient" Christians obviously do.
http://www.unaids.org/epi2005/doc/EPIupdate2005_html_en/epi05_11_en.htm

Although statistics are not all present for each country in Africa and other Third World countries, AIDS remains to be primarily passed on through unprotected sex and hetersexual contact. Because many of the men have unprotected sex with both girlfriends, prostitutes and then their wives, HIV transmission and AIDS deaths have increased for women and children.

Abstinence, HIV education, promotion of marital faithfulness and use of condoms, has contributed to a few success stories of transmission reduction, in a few countries. http://www.who.int/inf-new/aids2.htm

As I have stated earlier, just throwing condoms and sexual information at kids, without teaching abstinence, control, and responsibility, is not giving young adults a foundation to build on. The job of parents is to provide the moral and religious base to process that information.
If I recall correctly, I believe you mentioned the married being the larger portion that are infected with HIV/AIDS. Now, it appears that the focus mentioned above is on educating children and stating that the parents are the key moral and religious base. What you were stating earlier sounds as if there is no base. What I read in you post doesn't seem to be making sense from assertion to remedy. :confused:
Lastly, thank God, Who gave man brains and the intellectual capacity to create better medicine and methods to prevent disease. If using condoms to prevent a mortal disease is being disobedient to God, then surely we sin by using any other education and medical treatment to prevent disease or pain from over-eating, smoking, lack of exercise and breathing in pollution.

Huh? Thank God for medicine to counteract the effects of gluttony, slothfulness, polluting our body and the earth of which we are stewards?
Am I reading that right?
Wouldn't it be just as correct to do as we are supposed to do in those areas? :scratch:
 
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