Absolutely SICK.

[juiblex]

My CP at school here is slow and the site doesn't want to come up, are we talking about passing a fertilized embryo/egg? If it is we should at least try to define when life is considered to occur.

all i get is a login page, i guess i have register, which im not doing. but, if it is a contraceptive, and it does prevent the embryo from being attached, then it would be considered as passing a fertilised egg and not an abortion.

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by crazyfingers
Why? Generic life? A sperm cell is life. Would you protect them?

How about a bacteria that is inside the human body?  That's life.

I don't think that "life" is a good working definiton for what you want to define.

But then we are disrupting God's expert design of conception and birth by removing a life that has been said to be known by God before the beginning of the world.

Just because humans can safely remove life, doesn't make it right.

There are good reasons from a human standpoint (over population et al), to promote abortion, but if God is in control, then we do not have the right to mess with life, as long as the pregnancy is progressing normally.

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by juiblex
all i get is a login page, i guess i have register, which im not doing. but, if it is a contraceptive, and it does prevent the embryo from being attached, then it would be considered as passing a fertilised egg and not an abortion.

If thats true, then it's a fine line.

I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble with that page.

 

[brewmama]

Originally posted by crazyfingers
However there is no thought at all in an embryo. All of the examples above have brains and think in some way.

It is a matter of weeks before the brain is forming if the embryo is just left alone. 

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html 

 

[juiblex]

But then we are disrupting God's expert design of conception and birth by removing a life that has been said to be known by God before the beginning of the world.

yes but god is omniscient, He would already know that the embryo wasnt meant to be. and as such it may in fact be part of His plan.

originally posted by brewmama:

It is a matter of weeks before the brain is forming if the embryo is just left alone.

firstly then, we arent killing a sentient being with this drug. secondly, the brain is only forming, the embryo isnt sentient or concious.

so please make your point.

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by brewmama
It is a matter of weeks before the brain is forming if the embryo is just left alone. 

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html 

Hmmm, I think messing with a fertilized egg or a embryo is abortion.

A Sheep said it best "Don't wish to be pregnant?, Don't have sex!". Pretty easy.

 

[brewmama]

Originally posted by juiblex
yes but god is omniscient, He would already know that the embryo wasnt meant to be. and as such it may in fact be part of His plan.



firstly then, we arent killing a sentient being with this drug. secondly, the brain is only forming, the embryo isnt sentient or concious.

so please make your point.

Your logic would say all murder is justified if God knows about it, therefore it's part of his plan.

My point is that being sentient isn't the point. It's human life, which I consider sacred, and evidently you do not.

 

[TheBear]

"Don't wish to be pregnant?, Don't have sex!"

This over simplistic, generalized and unrealistic answer, really does not address the specific topic at hand. We are talking specifically about a medical procedure, and the moral implications. Address the specifics, and we can have an intelligent discussion.

 

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by GTX
But then we are disrupting God's expert design of conception and birth by removing a life that has been said to be known by God before the beginning of the world.

But of course you know that until you can demonstrate that your god actually exists, your argument will have no credibility.

Just because humans can safely remove life, doesn't make it right.

However I have not argued that it be removed simply because we can do it.  I think that there are other reason and cases when it is perfectly moral to remove an embryo. However our ability to do it is not a reason that I'd give.

There are good reasons from a human standpoint (over population et al), to promote abortion, but if God is in control, then we do not have the right to mess with life, as long as the pregnancy is progressing normally.

That is a big IF. In fact, I consider that to be exceedingly unlikely given the lack of any evidence for a god being in control.

 

[juiblex]

Your logic would say all murder is justified if God knows about it, therefore it's part of his plan.

its perfectly logical, if god exists, and is omniscient, then every outcome is already known, and hence is part of the plan. including murder, death, etc.etc.

My point is that being sentient isn't the point. It's human life, which I consider sacred, and evidently you do not.

i'd rather you didnt make personal value judgements of my character, it might tempt me to do the same to you.

and, the sentient point is perfectly valid, because you cannot murder unless it is sentient, and it is not human if it never has been even vaguely sentient. it is a growth, not a life in the generic sense of the term.

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by TheBear
"Don't wish to be pregnant?, Don't have sex!"

This over simplistic, generalized and unrealistic answer, really does not address the specific topic at hand. We are talking specifically about a medical procedure, and the moral implications. Address the specifics, and we can have an intelligent discussion.

Who's we?

I haven't seen you put anything forth.

Ok, maybe the saying should be altered to say "Don't want to be pregnant? Don't have pre marital sex, and if your married use contraceptives".

Juiblex: God is omniscient and would know that the baby would be aborted, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by GTX
Who's we?

I haven't seen you put anything forth.

Ok, maybe the saying should be altered to say "Don't want to be pregnant? Don't have pre marital sex, and if your married use contraceptives".

Okay. Now, back to the real world ....

Teenagers make bad decisions - they always have and always will.

So, we have to decide what to do about it when a teenager makes the decision to have unprotected, pre marital sex.

That is what Bear is talking about when he suggests concentrating on the moral issue at hand. And the moral issue at hand is: is it moral to allow a teenager to take a pill that prevents the implantation of an embryo?

I would say yes, because I do not believe that an embryo is a human being and teenagers should not have their lives ruined by their own foolish behaviour.

You have said that once an embryo implants, it should be considered human. But you have also said that preventing implantation is dodgy. Thus, I for one am not too clear on your position. Could you clarify it for me? Thanks.

 

[juiblex]

Juiblex: God is omniscient and would know that the baby would be aborted, but it doesn't make it right.

i never said anything about right, that would be a value judgement. all i said was that if the baby is aborted, it wasnt meant to live in the first place, otherwise God would have changed things. therefore, if it was meant to happen, and there was no divine intervention, it is part of His plan and is meant to teach us something.

at least, thats what Christians say when different tragedies happen.

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by David Gould
Okay. Now, back to the real world ....

Teenagers make bad decisions - they always have and always will.

So, we have to decide what to do about it when a teenager makes the decision to have unprotected, pre marital sex.

That is what Bear is talking about when he suggests concentrating on the moral issue at hand. And the moral issue at hand is: is it moral to allow a teenager to take a pill that prevents the implantation of an embryo?

I would say yes, because I do not believe that an embryo is a human being and teenagers should not have their lives ruined by their own foolish behaviour.

You have said that once an embryo implants, it should be considered human. But you have also said that preventing implantation is dodgy. Thus, I for one am not too clear on your position. Could you clarify it for me? Thanks.

It's a Dodgy subject, I am on the bubble. I don't know right now when life should be considered life.

Are you Bears spokesman now?

What hast Bear to say?

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by juiblex
i never said anything about right, that would be a value judgement. all i said was that if the baby is aborted, it wasnt meant to live in the first place, otherwise God would have changed things. therefore, if it was meant to happen, and there was no divine intervention, it is part of His plan and is meant to teach us something.

at least, thats what Christians say when different tragedies happen.

Yeah, I agree with your statement.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by GTX
It's a Dodgy subject, I am on the bubble.

Are you Bears spokesman now?

What hast Bear to say?

Sorry - Bear has no comment. I am Bear's official spokesperson on this issue.

I was agreeing with Bear. Your answer was not realistic and does not help solve any problems, moral or otherwise.

Okay, so you are undecided. Fair enough.

However, does that mean that you are undecided as to when a person exists or is there another reason why you are uncertain over blocking implantation?

 

[GTX]

Originally posted by David Gould
Sorry - Bear has no comment. I am Bear's official spokesperson on this issue.

I was agreeing with Bear. Your answer was not realistic and does not help solve any problems, moral or otherwise.

Okay, so you are undecided. Fair enough.

However, does that mean that you are undecided as to when a person exists or is there another reason why you are uncertain over blocking implantation?

Actually one of the forums mods made the quote. I just reposted it.

I am undecided because of the fertilization and the growing life, should we have the right to terminate the pregnancy at this point?

 

[GTX]

This thread is hot, from a rant to a hot topic!

I think the real question should be: When should life be considered unabortable life.

Not until we define and understand this and God's word can we make an educated decision based on both human values and biblical values.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by GTX
Actually one of the forums mods made the quote. I just reposted it.

I am undecided because of the fertilization and the growing life, should we have the right to terminate the pregnancy at this point?

I think the whole issue depends upon when you think a human exists. If a human does not exist at this point, then we probably have the right; if a human does exist at this point, then we probably do not have the right. (there may be exceptions either way).

No-one has been able to convince me that something without higher brain function is a human being; thus, I come down on the side of this drug being perfectly acceptable.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by GTX
This thread is hot, from a rant to a hot topic!

I think the real question should be: When should life be considered unabortable life.

Not until we define and understand this and God's word can we make an educated decision based on both human values and biblical values.

Snap!