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Abraham
- Thread starter RGL1
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Who was the vine that Jesus was talking about in John 15? Was it not Christ?Oh no, not at all, Yet those who were justified by faith prior to the comming of Messiah were not members of the body of Messiah, that is what I meant, I may have stated my question in an unclear manner
Who were the branches in that vine? Were they not OT Jews, since the New Testament had not been ratified yet?
How could Christ be saying that the branches were in Him(the vine) if salvation was not in Christ in the Old Testament?
GLJCA
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Christ was in God before the creation. Old testament saints are saved the same way that we are by His grace. Noah found Grace. Abraham found grace. All who are saved are by the will of the Father through His grace and mercy. There is one body, Old testamnet and new for God is not partial to man in the ways we think.
Hismessenger
Hismessenger
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The best way to look at this is that Abraham was
looking foward to the coming of Christ for tha attonment
of Sins. You must look also remeber that Juda did not
appear at Abraham's time.
Also the word gentile means heathen or cattle. I hear
christians call them self all the time, I just wish they
knew how to read a dictionary.
Ron
looking foward to the coming of Christ for tha attonment
of Sins. You must look also remeber that Juda did not
appear at Abraham's time.
Also the word gentile means heathen or cattle. I hear
christians call them self all the time, I just wish they
knew how to read a dictionary.
Ron
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Abraham was a gentile saved by grace. It matters not you ethnic background but your calling by God. God's grace is not of our choosing but of His purpose.
Read Job 34:20 and give God thanks and all the glory.
Hismessenger
Read Job 34:20 and give God thanks and all the glory.
Hismessenger
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ORI
Regular Member
Hi,
Good thread. Several points to consider. We are taught that many peoples were ask by G-d to accept his covenant, all but Abraham rejected. You will not find this in the canonized text but it is taught in Shul. It was stated that Abraham was saved by grace. The scriptures do not say this- it states that because of faith he was declared righteous Genesis 15:6 By definition faith and grace are not the same.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
That's interesting; Scripture does come close to something like this, though -- that because we all have sin, we would reject the offer were it not for God's bringing us to new birth by His Spirit (cf. Jn 3:3-8).
I'd agree that grace & faith aren't the same, but I'm unsure in what way you mean they are not the same. It seems to me if God were looking for a man to create his own faith in God, then it would be "of him who wills" (yet by Rom 9 Paul contradicts that).
That's generally why theology turns to an alternative, that God does something to men which creates this desire -- He would be doing that by His grace because of His love, as there would be no attribute of the people which would persuade Him to do so.
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and repays to their face those who hate him, by destroying them. Dt 7:6-9
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
It was by faith that Abraham obeyed God but by God's grace He was chosen. The scripture that Heymikey posted show the evidence of that truth.
Hismessenger
Hismessenger
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ORI
Regular Member
Several thoughts; point taken by heymikey 80 and by Hismessanger..
Quote; That's interesting; Scripture does come close to something like this, though -- that because we all have sin, we would reject the offer were it not for God's bringing us to new birth by His Spirit (cf. Jn 3:3-8).
The statement that I alluded to was not figurative but literal. He, Abraham made a commitment to HaShem to accept His edicts. Now one may say what edicts, the commandments had not been given yet – correct. The covenant established with Noah after the flood would be known as the Oral Tradition. Knowledge of this is very important because if you read Genesis 12:1 it implies that Abraham had knowledge of
who HaShem was. He elected to obey G-d when he was told leave his home. There was a time period between Abraham being called by G-d and He offering the Covenant. This time of “conditioning” was critical for Abraham as it is for us.I feel this is done so that G-d may use each one for a higher purpose. Think about it; Step 1) The spoken word / knowledge of a higher order. Step2) He speaks to our hearts to get our attention- the conditioning starts. Step 3) Salvation and forgiveness is offered because of His love for His creation. Step 4) The physical expression - acceptance of His covenant. Is it so very different today? Are we, the people of today so different from Abraham? There is more but I hope that I have conveyed my thought. J
Quote; I'd agree that grace & faith aren't the same, but I'm unsure in what way you mean they are not the same. It seems to me if God were looking for a man to create his own faith in God, then it would be "of him who wills" (yet by Rom 9 Paul contradicts that).
That's generally why theology turns to an alternative, that God does something to men which creates this desire -- He would be doing that by His grace because of His love, as there would be no attribute of the people which would persuade Him to do so.
My perception; By faith we accept and follow. Grace is the expression of His love for His creation.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
I believe that Enoch was before Abraham so your statement that none before Him obeyed God was incorrect. Abel was also of the faith and kept the covenant with God.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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JohnR7
Well-Known Member
Abraham was the common ancestor for the "Jewish" people. Although I am not sure that Jew is the proper scientific term to use.
Actually, Abraham was a common ancestor for the Arab people also, though the Egyptian Hagar.
Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you.
Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly.
He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
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JohnR7
Well-Known Member
Judah was one of the 12 sons of Jacob and one of the 12 tribes.
Jeremiah 3:8
Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Callaway1
You make these statements;
To answer your first statement, no the commandments hadn't been given and would not have been given if man had obeyed the voice of God. This is born out by your next statement that the covenant with Noah was an Oral covenant. And because of that oral covenant, Abraham did have knowledge of God.
And still we go back to Abel and Enoch who also obeyed the voice of God because they were deemed righteous before God. The commandments were given for the unrighteous man, not the righteous.
Here is scriptural truth to back up what is said.
Too many christians are caught up on keeping the commandments but He has since gave us a new and better covenant in Christ Jesus
Hismessenger
You make these statements;
To answer your first statement, no the commandments hadn't been given and would not have been given if man had obeyed the voice of God. This is born out by your next statement that the covenant with Noah was an Oral covenant. And because of that oral covenant, Abraham did have knowledge of God.
And still we go back to Abel and Enoch who also obeyed the voice of God because they were deemed righteous before God. The commandments were given for the unrighteous man, not the righteous.
Here is scriptural truth to back up what is said.
Too many christians are caught up on keeping the commandments but He has since gave us a new and better covenant in Christ Jesus
Hismessenger
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ORI
Regular Member
You are something. For starts the thread was about Abraham not Able or Enoch. I did not state that they did not obey the word of G-d. The statement alluded to the relationship between Abraham and G-d. The phrase other peoples were inclusive of peoples of that region which were Semitic. Are you anti-Semitic?
In response to your last statement – The Law- does it not say in Matthew 5
17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19) Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Heaven and earth have not disappeared. I would encourage more Christians to adhere to these words and know that Law is not obsolete but relative to our lives today.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Calliway,
No the law is not obsolete and it continues to do the very thing it was sent for and will continue until the end of time. CONDEMN SIN IN US. That was the purpose of the law. It was not given to a righteous man. Christ was a righteous man who took upon Himself OUR sins brought upon us by the edics of the law.
Because we are still sinners the law must remain until all is fulfilled from the word. That is why not one jot or tittle will pass away. Not because of our righteousness
in being able to keep it. But simply because we can't keep it. That is why Christ came to save us from ourselves.
Hismessenger
No the law is not obsolete and it continues to do the very thing it was sent for and will continue until the end of time. CONDEMN SIN IN US. That was the purpose of the law. It was not given to a righteous man. Christ was a righteous man who took upon Himself OUR sins brought upon us by the edics of the law.
Because we are still sinners the law must remain until all is fulfilled from the word. That is why not one jot or tittle will pass away. Not because of our righteousness
in being able to keep it. But simply because we can't keep it. That is why Christ came to save us from ourselves.
Hismessenger
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