Abraham was justified in Genesis TWELVE.

Catholic Dude said:

Since my last thread went so off track without really discussing the main issue I decided to repost my main argument again and hopefully people will stay on topic.


The Bible clearly teaches Abraham heard the Gospel, had faith, and was justified as early as Genesis 12. Reading Gn 12 alone is sufficient proof Abraham was a believer in God and obeyed him, though further evidence like Gal 3:8 and Heb 11:8 drive the point home (those verses reference Gen 12).

Given that Protestants believe that Abraham was justified in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4:3), and that they believe justification is by imputation as a one time legal decree means there is a problem here. Abraham cannot have been justified at two different times if the above definition/understanding holds. This is precisely why Protestants say James 2:21 (Gen 22) cannot be using "justification" in the same sense as St Paul in Rom 4:3.

The only way around this "problem" is to realize that the Protestant understanding of justification is incorrect, while the Catholic understanding is orthodox.

I believe the Catholic argument here is so strong that it is the decisive "silver bullet" on the issue of Justification by Faith Alone. Faith Alone was the doctrine by which the Reformation stood or fell, if it was wrong the Reformation was wrong.


A lot of this debate hinges on what Gen 15:6 means, especially the phrase "credited as righteousness". This phrase is unique and only appears one other time, Ps 106:30-31.

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I don't really see the issue here. Paul is saying that by grace through faith we are justified. James is saying the same, but expounds a bit. He it telling us what a saving faith is, it is a faith that produces works. Paul says the same thing when he tells us to test ourselves and others by the fruit in our lives. I don't know of any Protestant that says different. Works are evidence of our salvation, not the cause of our salvation. Faith is still, and always has been, the cause.

Paul and James are arguing from two different sides of the same coin. Paul is writing from the perspective of justification before God. James is writing to show justification before men. There is no contradiction, it is simply a different point of view that mutually compliments the other.

Catholicdude,


Well in Genesis 12 Abraham took God at his word and obeyed, then built an altar to the Lord and worshipped him. And you are correct, these events do parallel Galatians 3-8 and Hebrews 11-8. I just checked for confirmation. It is indisputable that Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 according to the scripture. So what you are saying is that the notion of justication as a one time, eternal, irrevocable event is contradicted by the presence of two justifications in Genesis, chapter 12 & 15. Correct or no? Now keep in mind, I do believe the notion of a one time justification first appeared with John Calvin, a "Protestant" but not one of the earliest ones. It does not appear to have been in Augustinian theology... Interesting subject. Hope you can keep it on track.

http://pontifications.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/augustine-on-justification/

Catholic Dude said:

Since my last thread went so off track without really discussing the main issue I decided to repost my main argument again and hopefully people will stay on topic.


The Bible clearly teaches Abraham heard the Gospel, had faith, and was justified as early as Genesis 12. Reading Gn 12 alone is sufficient proof Abraham was a believer in God and obeyed him, though further evidence like Gal 3:8 and Heb 11:8 drive the point home (those verses reference Gen 12).

Given that Protestants believe that Abraham was justified in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4:3), and that they believe justification is by imputation as a one time legal decree means there is a problem here. Abraham cannot have been justified at two different times if the above definition/understanding holds. This is precisely why Protestants say James 2:21 (Gen 22) cannot be using "justification" in the same sense as St Paul in Rom 4:3.

The only way around this "problem" is to realize that the Protestant understanding of justification is incorrect, while the Catholic understanding is orthodox.

I believe the Catholic argument here is so strong that it is the decisive "silver bullet" on the issue of Justification by Faith Alone. Faith Alone was the doctrine by which the Reformation stood or fell, if it was wrong the Reformation was wrong.


A lot of this debate hinges on what Gen 15:6 means, especially the phrase "credited as righteousness". This phrase is unique and only appears one other time, Ps 106:30-31.

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Well, I am not exactly a Protestant, as I am a Lutheran. Protestant was a label bestowed on us by Rome, and then embraced by other reformation denominations. Luther never wanted to leave the Church, but instead was excommunicated. Now with that out of the way...

There are few problems I see here.

1. Abraham's Justification doesn't seem to be a good model for understanding Christ's justification. Nevertheless we can work with it.

2. As far as the Lutheran doctrine of Justification, you not exactly correct in explaining how we see things at least (perhaps your argument with Lutherans as the Vatican believes that the Lutheran doctrine is the closest to theirs). The Lutheran motto of "Sola Fides, Sola Gratia, Solus Chritus" is not actually all that clear. Sola can mean "alone or through", while Solus always means "alone". Thus the motto could be translated. Through Faith, Through Grace, Christ Alone. In fact, I am sure that the reformers wanted to be ambiguous about this.

The other thing that is not quite right is that for Lutherans Justification is imputed continually throughout life only to be complete upon death Hence, Luther's famous saying simul justus et peccator. The correct translation is not "Sinner and Saint", but "simultaneously justified and a sinner". Luther also talked about the Old Adam and New Adam being within us at once. Look at like this, you are married on your wedding day, but you don't stop being married after that. We are justified initially and God is continually justifying us throughout the rest of our lives. Justification is as much as state of being as Original Sin is.

Justification by Faith Alone is a characterization. The reformers would have preferred Justification by Christ Alone as Paul talks about in Romans 3 and 4, and Ephesians 2.

While I hope I have addressed your issue with the Lutheran doctrine of Justification, perhaps you could further elaborate on what exactly you see the issues between the two is. Perhaps you are more taking issue with the Calvinist doctrine which is a one time imputation of grace, which I disagree with also.

Abraham was justified before Genesis 12. God called upon him because of his faith.

The Bible clearly teaches Abraham heard the Word of God, but not the whole Gospel of Christ, and put his faith in God, and was obedient in Genesis 12. Galatians 3:8 says that Scripture preached part of the Gospel, a descendant of Abraham would bless all nations, but does not address when or if Abraham was justified. Hebrews 11:8 again says Abraham trusted in God, but does not address his justification. Hebrews 11:2 indicates Abraham obtained "approval" by faith, but Hebrews 11:39-40 indicates Abraham was not made "perfect." It is only when we receive the justification made available through the cross that we are made perfect.

On the other hand, Genesis 15:6 does not say Abraham was made righteous, perfect, or justified. Rather, scripture says Abraham's faith was credited, counted, reckoned as righteousness. Similarly, Romans 4:5 does not say Abraham was justified when he trusted in God. Again, scripture says his faith was counted as righteousness, but does not say he was justified, made perfect, or made righteous. The way it works, is after God accepts a persons faith in Christ, credits the faith as righteousness, then God spiritually places them "in Christ" where they undergo the circumcision of Christ and are born again a new creation, justified, and made perfect. Romans 3:23-24 makes the point quite clearly, we are justified by a gift through the redemption that is in Christ. Abraham, of course, could not yet be propitiated by the blood of Christ, so he along with all the other OT saints, who had obtained "approval" had to wait until the New Covenant was inaugurated.

Our faith in Christ provides our access to the saving grace in which we stand. We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works which we have done.

The finished work of the cross provided justification to all men, but we are justified only when we receive the reconciliation provided by the cross through faith.

In summary, scripture teaches no flesh is justified by the works of the Law, but apart from the Law we can be justified through faith in Christ. There is only one justification, when a person is placed "in Christ" where he or she is made perfect in Him.

Why did God speak to him in the first place? That you don't take into you consideration. I do.

Catholic Dude said:

The issue is much bigger than what you just described. Protestants believe Abraham was considered righteous though he was not actually righteous. Rather, "Christ's Righteousness" acted like a blanket that covered Abraham's unrighteous soul and made him appear righteous on the outside. This is popularly called "imputed grace". On this basis Protestants believe God considered Abraham to be righteous.

Catholics totally reject that idea because it is nothing short of a legal fiction. If Abraham wasnt actually righteous then God could not have considered Abraham to be righteous. That is why Catholics say there is no imputation going on here but rather infusion. God's grace was infused in his soul making his soul actually righteous.


Then what was Abraham doing in Gen 15:6 if he was already justified in Gen 12?

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God's Grace has been imputed to all mankind. We live in and by His Grace. It is simply the overflowing of His Nature revealed to mankind for mankind to respond to. . . . . Abraham reponded.

mattlock73 said:

Faith is still, and always has been, the cause.

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True, but it is important to clarify that faith is the instrumental cause of our justification but not the meritorious grounds for it. We aren't justified because of faith. Faith is the means by which we appropriate the righteousness of Christ. Our justification is found in the propitiatory work of Christ alone.

Paul and James are arguing from two different sides of the same coin. Paul is writing from the perspective of justification before God. James is writing to show justification before men. There is no contradiction, it is simply a different point of view that mutually compliments the other.

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Very true.

God bless

Abram believed and sought God for the same reason the centurian sought out Jesus, he had a need/burden. Abram's 'burden' was a spiritual one and he knew there was a God who could lift it. God heard Abram's faith and knew then He had his man for His purpose. Paul understood this when he wrote: "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Galatians 3:5 (KJV, YLT)

Catholic Dude said:

You are correct, that is what I am getting at. What is especially significant is the weight Gn 15:6 has been given both in Protestant theology and the NT itself. The famous Rom 4 and James 2 both are talking of justification and both reference Gen 15:6.

From what I have read the concept of a one time event first appeared with Luther and greatly developed with Calvin. They were starting on the same false assumptions though. Luther was the first to come up with the concept of Imputed Righteousness, and that is where a one time justification by faith alone logically resulted from.


As for Augustinian theology, you are also correct, Augustine believed strongly in Infused Grace, especially at Baptism, and his views are in irreconcilable conflict with the Protestant idea of Imputation.

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While the difference between Luther and Calvin, that Luther and Melancthon allowed for both a one time declaration of forensic justification and a justification that brought a new reality in which we seek justice with our neighbour, there is not doubt scripturally that Justification is imputed.

Romans 4 is being continually mentioned, more significant to the Lutheran reformers was Romans 3. Luther did not "make up" imputed righteousness, it most clearly expressed by Paul in Romans 3.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe

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There is no way to be righteous in God's sight of our own accord. Paul is saying that even if a Jew could be righteous in the sight of the Law, he would not be counted righteous in the sight of God. The only we receive this righteousness is by God declaring us so even when we are not.

The Reformers said it so much better than I could, so here a quote form the Apology of the Augsburg Confession

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If we merit the remission of sins by these elicit acts [that spring from our mind], of what benefit is Christ? If we can be justified by reason and the works of reason, wherefore is there need 13] of Christ or regeneration [as Peter declares, 1 Pet. 1, 18ff ]? And from these opinions the matter has now come to such a pass that many ridicule us because we teach that an other than 14] the philosophic righteousness must be sought after. [Alas! it has come to this, that even great theologians at Louvain, Paris, etc., have known nothing of any other godliness or righteousness (although every letter and syllable in Paul teaches otherwise) than the godliness which philosophers teach. And although we ought to regard this as a strange teaching, and ought to ridicule it, they rather ridicule us, yea, make a jest of Paul himself.][/FONT]

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Reformationist said:

True, but it is important to clarify that faith is the instrumental cause of our justification but not the meritorious grounds for it. We aren't justified because of faith. Faith is the means by which we appropriate the righteousness of Christ. Our justification is found in the propitiatory work of Christ alone.

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Agreed, thanks for clarifying.

Catholic Dude said:

The issue is much bigger than what you just described. Protestants believe Abraham was considered righteous though he was not actually righteous. Rather, "Christ's Righteousness" acted like a blanket that covered Abraham's unrighteous soul and made him appear righteous on the outside. This is popularly called "imputed grace". On this basis Protestants believe God considered Abraham to be righteous.

Catholics totally reject that idea because it is nothing short of a legal fiction. If Abraham wasnt actually righteous then God could not have considered Abraham to be righteous. That is why Catholics say there is no imputation going on here but rather infusion. God's grace was infused in his soul making his soul actually righteous.

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Paul speaks about justification using the analogy of a court of law. The accused comes to stand before the bench, and there is no doubt about his guilt. But he is justified (pronounced not guilty in a legal verdict). How can this be if God is just? Because the debt had been paid for by the propriation. Our account is cleared through the blood of Christ. It is not through an infusion of grace over time, but once (and for all). The tab of sins which we racked up were bought and paid for on the cross.


Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. rom 3:21-26

Then what was Abraham doing in Gen 15:6 if he was already justified in Gen 12?

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Abraham was justified (by faith) before God already, James speaks of his justification before men (obedience).

mattlock73 said:

Agreed, thanks for clarifying.

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Sorry Matt, but you are making a poor distinction here.

Faith indeed does justify, however, without the shedding of the Blood of Jesus, in and of itself it could never us take us home. Righteous dead men had to wait in paradise 4000 yrs for that to happen. When Jesus died, He set them free.

Ormly said:

Sorry Matt, but you are making a poor distinction here.

Faith indeed does justify, however, without the shedding of the Blood of Jesus, in and of itself it could never us take us home. Righteous dead men had to wait in paradise 4000 yrs for that to happen. When Jesus died, He set them free.

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As stated, I agree. That is the point of Jesus as the propitiation. Without it, there would be no salvation.

mattlock73 said:

As stated, I agree. That is the point of Jesus as the propitiation. Without it, there would be no salvation.

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True, however, in agreeing with Reformationist you seem to be contradicting yourself.