about time we had a challenge in SR .........

[cygnusx1]

Here's me sticking my neck out ....... probably get banned from SR , but here goes ........ The Law , God's Law , is it the Christian Rule of Life ...yes or No?

Are you going to divide up God's Law , I posted this someplace today , and would like it to be a friendly debate ........ hopefully we all may learn something ...

I used to do that , divide up the Law of God ...

1. Moral Law = Ten Commandments
2. Civil Law = the Law of the land and property laws etc
3. Ceremonial Law = animal sacrifices etc.


but then I realised what a huge mistake that was .... the Law Is ONE , it cannot be hacked and Hewed by men , finding which bits they want to keep ... so I did a study and discovered The Law is One indisoluable perfect rule and the essence is already written on every human heart (ROMANS 2)

then I discovered that the ceremonial part of the Law typified by circumcision if rightly "done away with " then this includes the Ten Commandments .... please keep in mind the strict sabbath Law is part of the Ten Commandments and The Law comes with a curse to all who are under it.
So I realised that these arguements put forward to suggest that we are set free from the ceremonial part of God's Law but NOT from the Ten Commandments are error , for what did I a Gentile need setting free from in the ceremonial part of The Law , I wasn't even under that part!!!
But my problem was that as all men I was under the Law in it's very essence revealed in the Ten Commandments , it was these Laws that condemned me that showed me I was a sinner and that according to God's Law I was worthy of Death. .... This was the Law I needed to be set free from , and Once Free , only a FOOL (yes the Apostle called the Galations FOOLS) would ever want to go back under a Law that is no respecter of persons including Christians........ those who say the Law has no power over us for Justification but it does for sanctification miss totally the whole point of The Law and The period we are now under ......... The period of Grace , where we don't come under The Law , but By Obeying Christ we (accidently) fulfill The Law.
Greetings Cygnus

 

[Terri]

Well, I don't see anything to debate.

The Bible is clear.

If you place yourself under the law, you are denying Jesus.

We live by the Spirit, not the law.

Romans and Galatians should be read over and over and then over again by anyone that believes that they are under the law.

You can't be under the law and grace--you must choose one.

I choose grace and I'm very happy to hear that you do too Cygnus!

 

[wsgm]

How then should we live? If the Law is no longer relevant for us, then what should we do? Can I covet and be dishonoring to my parents and sleep with anyone I please even if we are both married to other people? Can I have idols if they help me worship Jesus?

I assume that we must also set Jesus' expanision of the law (lust and hate are now ok!) and His summary of the law that actually came from the OT law (just love God as much as you feel like and don't worry about your neighbor), since these were just to show us our utter failure.

Heck, those first 39 books of the Bible are so cumbersom, and I don't really need them. The last 27 are way more interesting anyway, and they are a whole lot lighter to carry around. I'll just use those.

Just want you to think about what you are saying. But seriously, isn't this the logical conclusion of what you are saying?

 

[cygnusx1]

How then should we live? If the Law is no longer relevant for us, then what should we do? Can I covet and be dishonoring to my parents and sleep with anyone I please even if we are both married to other people? Can I have idols if they help me worship Jesus?

I assume that we must also set Jesus' expanision of the law (lust and hate are now ok!) and His summary of the law that actually came from the OT law (just love God as much as you feel like and don't worry about your neighbor), since these were just to show us our utter failure.

Heck, those first 39 books of the Bible are so cumbersom, and I don't really need them. The last 27 are way more interesting anyway, and they are a whole lot lighter to carry around. I'll just use those.

Just want you to think about what you are saying. But seriously, isn't this the logical conclusion of what you are saying?

Hi there wsgm

I am saying the moment a person becomes a Christian (truly Born Again not just an emotional conversion) in that instance their old life is over , they have died .
They are now part of Christs Body , the same Body that hung on the cross , and now their lives are hid in Christ in God , they are no longer operating in this world as sinners under the Law... they are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus and they have passed from death to life ALREADY ..... this is the reason no Christian should fear death , He has already died.
And BONUS time , he no longer is under The Law , he is a free man .......

now some will say does that mean you can kill ... lie ... steal ... commit adultery because you are no longer under that law ??
well , if you did do those things you merely show that you are not free from sin , from Law , and from death , but you have an illusion of freedom....
A person who is free , must by Faith consider himself FREE , this will mean walking by faith , not just having faith to get saved , but walking daily in the Freedom of God's [power .......... will that make me desire to sin , because I am no longer under the Laws power ?
NO! if I have been set free , a natural response is gratitude and obedience of faith , I will want to please my Lord , not offend Him , so if I sin , it will be through lack of faith , lack of watching and lack of waiting upon God.
Even so , the Christian is to be exorted daily to put to death the deeds of the flesh and to walk in the Newness of The Spirit .....
In Romans 6 The Christian is delivered from the power of sin , and in Romans 7 he is delivered from the power of the Law .......... and Romans 8 is a wonderful summary of the truth .

greetings Cygnus ......... free from the Law , but not without Law.... we have Christs Law.

 

[Knight]

This sounds like the first half of the book of Romans all over again.

The apostle Paul has already been there and done that.

 

[gtsecc]

Ok, here is a traditional view of God's Law from a different Church, but you may agree with it:

Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ saith: Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

The Law is the first 5 books of Moses, the Pentatuch.

The Prophets are the Prophetic books of the Old Testament.

 

[wsgm]

Hi there wsgm

I am saying the moment a person becomes a Christian (truly Born Again not just an emotional conversion) in that instance their old life is over , they have died .
They are now part of Christs Body , the same Body that hung on the cross , and now their lives are hid in Christ in God , they are no longer operating in this world as sinners under the Law... they are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus and they have passed from death to life ALREADY ..... this is the reason no Christian should fear death , He has already died.
And BONUS time , he no longer is under The Law , he is a free man .......

now some will say does that mean you can kill ... lie ... steal ... commit adultery because you are no longer under that law ??
well , if you did do those things you merely show that you are not free from sin , from Law , and from death , but you have an illusion of freedom....
A person who is free , must by Faith consider himself FREE , this will mean walking by faith , not just having faith to get saved , but walking daily in the Freedom of God's [power .......... will that make me desire to sin , because I am no longer under the Laws power ?
NO! if I have been set free , a natural response is gratitude and obedience of faith , I will want to please my Lord , not offend Him , so if I sin , it will be through lack of faith , lack of watching and lack of waiting upon God.
Even so , the Christian is to be exorted daily to put to death the deeds of the flesh and to walk in the Newness of The Spirit .....
In Romans 6 The Christian is delivered from the power of sin , and in Romans 7 he is delivered from the power of the Law .......... and Romans 8 is a wonderful summary of the truth .

greetings Cygnus ......... free from the Law , but not without Law.... we have Christs Law.

I agree with you (I think). Your first post sounded like you wanted to completely ignore the law, but I think that we can agree that as believers we should desire and strive to please the God and Savior who set us free. What guide do we have for pleasing Him? Is it not the Law that teaches us His revealed will? Christ's Law is practically identical to the so-called Moral Law of the OT because God does not change. I think this is what people usually mean when they say that the Moral Law is still valid while the Ceremonial and Civil parts of the Law have been set aside (because Jesus fulfilled one and the other ended with the Hebrew Theocracy).

The Law is still an aid to us because it teaches us about God's character and how we can please Him. We certainly do not look to it for salvation, but we cannot throw it away because it is still God's revealed will and our guide for pleasing Him.

"We are not struggling to be free, but we have been set free to struggle."

 

[larryjf]

Mat 22:37,39,40 -
...You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
...You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

And yes, you do have to love God and your neighbor.

 

[cygnusx1]

Ok, here is a traditional view of God's Law from a different Church, but you may agree with it:

Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ saith: Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

The Law is the first 5 books of Moses, the Pentatuch.

The Prophets are the Prophetic books of the Old Testament.

I always find this a really interesting quote , for years I was under the impression that we were free from the Ceremonial aspect of the Law , like circumcision , that we were still under the Moral Law ......... The Moral Law was given to mean The Ten Commandments , so I gratefully received my instruction until one day I searched and do you know what ?
These Two Laws quoted above are not even in the Ten Commandments , how odd I thought , and what other bits and pieces are not in the Ten Commandments but can easily be construed as the Moral Law ? Tything , The Laws of Jubilee .........

here's something to ponder ......... ALL GOD'S LAW IS MORAL .... the Moral Law is not the Ten Commandments , it is The Entire Law ........ every Law that God ever Uttered is MORAL , and it has a penalty for all who break it ......... it is This very Law (particularly the 10 commandments) that stood against us , and if we are foolish enough to come back under it , stands against us again!

Do You really think The Law will make an exception for you because you tell it you are a Christian ........ hah ..... it doesn't recognise any name , it just judges , and judges and judges ........ if you want death go back under the Law ..... it's waiting for you.

 

[cygnusx1]

I agree with you (I think). Your first post sounded like you wanted to completely ignore the law, but I think that we can agree that as believers we should desire and strive to please the God and Savior who set us free. What guide do we have for pleasing Him? Is it not the Law that teaches us His revealed will? Christ's Law is practically identical to the so-called Moral Law of the OT because God does not change. I think this is what people usually mean when they say that the Moral Law is still valid while the Ceremonial and Civil parts of the Law have been set aside (because Jesus fulfilled one and the other ended with the Hebrew Theocracy).

The Law is still an aid to us because it teaches us about God's character and how we can please Him. We certainly do not look to it for salvation, but we cannot throw it away because it is still God's revealed will and our guide for pleasing Him.

"We are not struggling to be free, but we have been set free to struggle."

Nowhere does the Law require many things that Christ requires , Jesus said he who looks at a woman with Lust in his heart has commited adultery ....... The Law only dealt with the outer acts , same goes for murder , he who calls his brother a fool is guilty of hell fire ........ I never read anything like this in the Law ........ He who would come after me Let Him deny himself and carry his cross ........ never read that in The Law ........ also the First Christians went far far beyond Tything ........ The Law merely requires a Tythe , a tax , a Levy for The Levites.

The Galations wanted to mix Law and Grace ,Paul says it cannot be done ......... they are opposed to each other , the Law condemns (it still does) but The Grace of God does not condemn in fact it Helps us , it interceeds for us and it covers us in a garment of Righteousness ........ but the temptation is always to do good works to find some merit some reward , some praise from God ........ Good works are God's work , and only have value as they arise from Faith , not Law.

Law says Thou shalt Not .........
Grace says , You shall because you are a free-man .......

Only as one is fully and finally set free from The Law , can He please God , for it will be from Freedom and Love that we now serve , not from slavery and fear ........ Sonship began the instance you moved from slave to Son ... and no son pays Taxes to the King if his Father is The KING!

The hardest thing for anyone to shake off is merit mentality .......

 

[oworm]

The hardest thing for anyone to shake off is merit mentality .......

Thankyou................................. for my new signature

 

[cygnusx1]

Thankyou................................. for my new signature

wow ... I am both humbled and honoured ... thanks Brother

 

[cygnusx1]

For an excellent break down of the difference between Law and Grace and the comparitive effect it has on the individual ........ read this chart .....

http://www.xenos.org/essays/law_grc.htm

 

[JM]

Yes, we are not required to perform works of the Law but does the moral Law of God change simply because we are under a New Covenant or does God moral Law still come into effect? (ex. adultery, is it still wrong when we are under Grace...yes.)

 

[TheMagi]

here's something to ponder ......... ALL GOD'S LAW IS MORAL .... the Moral Law is not the Ten Commandments , it is The Entire Law ........ every Law that God ever Uttered is MORAL , and it has a penalty for all who break it

Moral, but not the moral law. There is a difference. For example, large parts of the law are to do with negating sin already committed, or with states of uncleanness. Obviously, this cannot apply, to me a christian, because I have neither guilt nor uncleanness that is not washed away by Christ.
That law is not the moral law - it extends to what is done when the first part of the law, the moral law, is neglected. The law that is not moral law, is that which is specific to the covenant structures of the covenant at Sinai. It is as useful to go back as to go forward to understand this.
It was wrong for Abraham to covet - would it be wrong for him to make incense according to the standard of the sanctuary? If so, why?

I am not saying that the moral law still applies. What I am saying is that there exists a foundation of right living which is not fully expressed, but nonethless implicit not only in themosaic law, but also in earlier covenant relationships. That foundation of right living has authority for us as far as it guides us, though it is not law to us.

Magi

 

[TheMagi]

Yes, we are not required to perform works of the Law but does the moral Law of God change simply because we are under a New Covenant or does God moral Law still come into effect? (ex. adultery, is it still wrong when we are under Grace...yes.)

Is adultery loving thy neighbour and loving the lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength?

The ten commandments are clearly divided in two - into those commandements that are to do with the love of God, and those that are to do with love of neighbour. That is how we see that they are still wrong to break,

Magi

 

[cygnusx1]

Is adultery loving thy neighbour and loving the lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength?

The ten commandments are clearly divided in two - into those commandements that are to do with the love of God, and those that are to do with love of neighbour. That is how we see that they are still wrong to break,

Magi

I agree , and He who is obeying Christ's Law (the Law of Love) will not commit adultery , not because Moses tells us not to , but we are told that Christ came to fulfill the Law , likewise we are fulfilling the Law by doing unto others what we have them do unto us ........
I accept that The Law of Christ and The Law of Moses are parallel , but we cannot be under both , we cannot be under Law and Under Grace , we have one Head , and Grace is over us now not The Law , otherwise we are condemned!

 

[cygnusx1]

Moral, but not the moral law. There is a difference. For example, large parts of the law are to do with negating sin already committed, or with states of uncleanness. Obviously, this cannot apply, to me a christian, because I have neither guilt nor uncleanness that is not washed away by Christ.
That law is not the moral law - it extends to what is done when the first part of the law, the moral law, is neglected. The law that is not moral law, is that which is specific to the covenant structures of the covenant at Sinai. It is as useful to go back as to go forward to understand this.
It was wrong for Abraham to covet - would it be wrong for him to make incense according to the standard of the sanctuary? If so, why?

I am not saying that the moral law still applies. What I am saying is that there exists a foundation of right living which is not fully expressed, but nonethless implicit not only in themosaic law, but also in earlier covenant relationships. That foundation of right living has authority for us as far as it guides us, though it is not law to us.

Magi

what is Law ??
It is not advice , it is Not merely instruction , it always carries threats and punishments . It always rules those who are under it , and it cannot intervene or change to suit a persons need..........
hence the desperate need for all Christians to DIE to The Law , to be set free from The Law , and to find a New way of Living .......... one without threats and fire........one of encouragement and help .....

we have come to Mt Zion not Mt Sinai .......... our mother is Sarah not Hagar ...

Greetings Cygnus

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes, we are not required to perform works of the Law but does the moral Law of God change simply because we are under a New Covenant or does God moral Law still come into effect? (ex. adultery, is it still wrong when we are under Grace...yes.)

here's something further to ponder ......... under The Law IF you commit adultery you deserve the death Penalty .... Correct?
But also , if you sin against any part of the Law you are guilty and the punishment is death ....... correct?
Take for example "Thou Shalt Not Lie" .......... Annanias and Sapphira ... lied and died for their sin.

Now are we as God's children under a Rule of law that is like that ....... yes or no ?

I am interested in as many answers as possible , you see there is much more to it than saying we are still under the Moral Law....

 

[TheMagi]

Amen to that. What I was saying was that the moral law is a useful guide to what moral behaviour is, not because it is law and a signpost at the same time, but because what is 'right behaviour' - loving behaviour - was incorporated into the law, because the law is good.
Obviously -thankfully!-we are dead to the law; it applies in no way or under any circumstances. That doesn't prevent it - or rather portions of it - being the revealed will of God as regards human contduct at all times and in all ages.

Magi