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About the Beginning

pshun2404

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Conservation of energy implies that in an isolated system energy can be neither created nor destroyed, although it can be changed from one form (mechanical, kinetic, chemical, etc.) into another. In an isolated system the sum of all forms of energy therefore remains constant.So, the total quantity of energy in an isolated system does not change, though it may change form. In physics then, it is said "the total quantity of the property governed by that law remains unchanged during physical processes."


Therefore, as Planck demonsttrates, a consequence of the law is that a perpetual motion machine of the first kind cannot exist (a system or machine which produces work without the input of energy).

That is to say, no system without an external energy supply can deliver an unlimited amount of energy to its surroundings. (See Max. Planck’s, Treatise on Thermodynamics, third English edition translated by A. Ogg from the seventh German edition, Longmans, Green & Co., London, page 40). Such a thing is unimaginable in Physics, and is said to be an epistemic impossibility.


To me this is indicative of Aristotle’s concept of “prime mover”. Nothing can move without something that moved it. He was addressing a physical observation (not a spiritual speculation) in that movement not only meant something travelling in some direction, but also change, growth, melting, cooling, and so on. He argues back to something which moves it but of itself is itself unmoved, i.e., a necessary first source(s) of all movement.


It is theorized that the original motion of the mass/energy (which allegedly has never changed only transformed) which became the planets, stars, etc., is an expected reality (though we have yet to prove it absolutely). However if Planck and Aristotle are correct, then can't it be logically deduced that the origin of the Universe also required the “input” of a force not of the Universe.


I realize this is simplified but any thoughts?
 

FrumiousBandersnatch

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We don't know what happened at the origin of the universe, or even if it had an origin. All we have is some good reasons to believe we can trace its history back to a state of extremely high density and temperature, and extremely low entropy, around 14 billion years ago. Beyond that is speculation.

If you want to speculate about applying thermodynamics and conservation laws to the origin of the universe, it doesn't make sense to invoke something not subject to those laws - it's the fallacy of Special Pleading. If you want to speculate about an origin in which those laws don't apply, then you don't need any additional entities (Occam's Razor applies). If you want to speculate about forces 'not of' the universe, you'll need to clarify exactly what you mean by 'universe', because the common meaning of universe as 'all there is' can't have such input by definition.

There are alternatives to a single universe that is all there is, such as a multiverse, that are consistent or compatible with current physical models, and there are a number of hypotheses about the universe pre-big bang.

Informed speculation can be useful, but the key driver for scientific exploration is the curiosity that accompanies the acknowledgement that we don't yet know.
 
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Michael

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Conservation of energy implies that in an isolated system energy can be neither created nor destroyed, although it can be changed from one form (mechanical, kinetic, chemical, etc.) into another.

This law of physics implies that energy has existed eternally in some form or another, and that energy itself is eternal. That law that while energy changes forms over time, it cannot be created, nor destroyed. Whatever energy exists in the universe today has therefore always existed in some form, if not the exact form that we find it today.
 
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lesliedellow

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Before physical laws can be of any relevance, there has to be a physical universe for them to apply to. Therefore they cannot be relevant to the very moment of the big bang. Some tiny fraction of a second afterwards, maybe, but not to the big bang itself.
 
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pshun2404

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This law of physics implies that energy has existed eternally in some form or another, and that energy itself is eternal. That law that while energy changes forms over time, it cannot be created, nor destroyed. Whatever energy exists in the universe today has therefore always existed in some form, if not the exact form that we find it today.

Does it? It says energy cannot be created of destroyed IN an Isolated system and that it remains constant during PHYSICAL processes. Neither of these descriptions apply to God. They only speak of that which was created. It applies only in do far as there was a Universe.
 
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pshun2404

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Before physical laws can be of any relevance, there has to be a physical universe for them to apply to. Therefore they cannot be relevant to the very moment of the big bang. Some tiny fraction of a second afterwards, maybe, but not to the big bang itself.

Precisely! But something caused this because the big bang moment was an effect....
 
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Michael

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Does it? It says energy cannot be created of destroyed IN an Isolated system and that it remains constant during PHYSICAL processes. Neither of these descriptions apply to God. They only speak of that which was created. It applies only in do far as there was a Universe.

Well, I'd argue that whatever energy exists in this universe today has always existed in some form, even if it was in the form of "God energy".
 
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Michael

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Before physical laws can be of any relevance, there has to be a physical universe for them to apply to.

Well, even Lambda-CDM begins with that premise. It begins with a preexisting amount of energy in motion at the start of that theory.

Therefore they cannot be relevant to the very moment of the big bang. Some tiny fraction of a second afterwards, maybe, but not to the big bang itself.

I don't see why not. Even the 'bang' itself has a "cause", and there's no evidence that it lacked for energy.
 
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Willis Gravning

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I think of the universe sort of like an egg. It is a closed system that begins with raw material and information. In the case of the egg the DNA is the information. The universe's raw material is a massive amount of energy and the information are the laws of nature.
Of course then we might wonder about the chicken and which came first. :)
 
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