About perpetual life

[ywl]

Another question will be how Jesus can save people who lives in a non-Christian family or country, where, the name of God is not even known. They worship other gods or people like Buddha or their emperors. For example, native Indians of America before European came, ancient oriental countries.

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RE: When Jesus was still alive, of course, at that time, only small amount of people know the Gospel, like his disciples. Furthermore, I don't know how people before Jesus get salvation.

Be careful about making the all-too-common mistake of assuming that the word "gospel" always means the same thing every time in every era regardless of the context.

I'm aware of at least four gospels.

1) the everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6-7)

2) the gospel of the kingdom (Mtt 24:14)

3) the gospel of the cross (Mrk 16:15-16)

4) the Old Testament gospel (Heb 4:2)

Regardless of which of those four gospels one is privy to; salvation has always been by one's faith rather than by one's conduct.

†. Hab 2:4 . .The righteous shall live by his faith.

So then, even though people in the Old Testament didn't have as many details as we have today; all they had to do was believe, and act, upon whatever information they were given.

But those people knew a whole lot more about Christ than is given them credit. Abraham, for example, was fully aware of a coming redeemer.

†. John 8:56 . .Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day— he saw it and was glad.

Jacob was aware of a coming redeemer too.

†. Gen 49:18 . . I have waited for thy salvation; oh Lord.

The whole 53rd chapter of Isaiah reveals that Yhvh's people were fully advised of a coming redeemer.

†. Isa 53:5-6 . . He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Yhvh hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Unfortunately, the people to whom the Old Testament gospel was sent didn't think much of it.

†. Isa 53:1 . .Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of Yhvh been revealed?

†. Heb 4:2 . . For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Webers_Home]

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RE: Another question will be how Jesus can save people who lives in a non-Christian family or country, where, the name of God is not even known. They worship other gods or people like Buddha or their emperors. For example, native Indians of America before European came, ancient oriental countries.

The universal way to salvation for barbarians is by means of the testimony of nature and the testimony of their own conscience. (Rom 1:18-20 and Rom 2:12-16)

The complexity of nature is adequate proof of intelligent design; which implies the existence of a creator. Everybody's conscience instinctively knows that the creator is a person of justice because God took pains to instill the human conscience with a sense of right and wrong so that people would anticipate having to answer for themselves someday. Even atheists instinctively know that things have to be made right, though they are wont to stifle their subconscious urges in such matters; which is a very bad habit to get into.

†. Rom 1:18 . .The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all impiety and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Though it's true that neither nature nor one's conscience has much to say about a Christ; acting upon their testimony is enough to get one's self spared the wrath of God. Here's a pertinent example.

†. Luke 18:10-14 . . Two men went to the Temple to pray: one was a Pharisee, and the other was a dishonest tax collector. The proud Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there. For I'm not predatory, I'm not dishonest, I'm not promiscuous, I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.

. . But the tax collector stood way in the back and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying: O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.

. . I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home cleared of all charges against him before God. For the proud will be humbled, but the humble will be honored.

There's neither a Jesus nor a cross in the tax collector's confession. There are only elements of the everlasting gospel preached by the angel in Rev 14:6-7

The tax collector simply believed there is a God, and he believed God is a judge, and he believed he was facing charges. Subsequently, the tax collector spoke into the air and begged for clemency— and he was in —thus proving that an acquittal is available to anyone who believes, and acts, upon the everlasting gospel.

†. Rev 14:6-7 . .Then I saw another angel flying across the sky, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth— to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people —saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.

The everlasting gospel contains nothing all that complicated. It merely states that:

1) there's a supreme being

2) He's to be recognized and respected

3) He's going to call the human race to account, and

4) the cosmos is the result of intelligent design.

Were I at liberty to do so, I would rename the angel's everlasting gospel and call it: The Barbarian's Gospel. Sophisticates with ThD's from Bible colleges and seminaries might scoff and dismiss the barbarian's gospel as oversimplified; but it is, nevertheless a very potent gospel and belief in it will easily save even the most ignorant Neanderthal that ever lived; and all without the availability of a Bible or the assistance of a missionary worker.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[christian08]

Our Lord already did those things when He was crucified and dead for 3 days. Sheol were for people who didn't have faith, didn't believe in the Messiah, were already non-believers of their Creator and the prophecies to come OF the Messiah, unfortunately, like our faith in Jesus now, they made their decision back then and now wait therre still for the White Throne Judgement of our Lord. So when our Lord "decended" as the Apostles called it, He went to preach the Gospel to the ones in Paradise and to bring them up w/ Him, because OF their faith. Hope this helps my friend. At a time like this w/ this kind of teaching, i want to note that our God IS just and holy. We may not always understand his thoughts like He says in Isaiah, but we know He works ALL things for good. So even though we may not like some things, it's still the truth from the Lord and we need to just come to Him and pray for guidance, and His will to be done in our lives and not ours. I hope this helps, message me some more when ever you feel

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: So does this means that Jesus will go to paradise and Sheol to save people or spiritis there?

The Old Testament's Sheol is the New Testament equivalent of Haides, which is simply the afterlife. Paradise used to be one of the two compartments in Haides, the other being a zone of torment and flames (Luke 16:19-31). The two compartments were at one time within shouting distance of one another. Whether that's still the case or not, I'm not really sure.

When Jesus expired on the cross, he went to Haides.

†. Acts 2:25-27 . .For David says of Christ:

. . I was always beholding the Lord in my presence; for He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; moreover my flesh also will abide in hope; because You wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.

†. Acts 2:29-32 . . Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ: that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh undergo decay.

However, Jesus didn't go to the flaming zone in Haides, instead, he went to the paradise zone.

†. Luke 23:43 . . Jesus replied: I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.

The Greek word for paradise is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which means: a park (as a garden, e.g. Eden)

Obviously then, people in paradise don't need saving else they would be over in the flaming zone rather than the comfort zone.

So then, what about the people over in the flaming compartment? Well, unfortunately, they won't be granted an audience with Christ till their day in court.

†. Rev 20:12-15 . . And death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them, according to their deeds.

There are people who insist that 1Pet 3:18-20 indicates that the Sprit of Christ preached to the souls in Haides. They are half correct, it did. However, their timing is off. The preaching took place in the days of Noah, prior to the Flood, while the ark was under construction rather than after Jesus was crucified. How did the Spirit of Christ accomplish his preaching in those days? Answer: by means of Mr. Noah's pulpit; the same way Christ does it now. (2Pet 2:5)

This brings up an interesting thought. The criminal who died with Christ, and any saved Neanderthals of the past, were essentially biblically illiterates. Does that suggest there may be Bible classes in the kingdom of God? Absolutely! Those people have to be brought up to speed.

†. Isa 11:9 . . For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yhvh, as the waters cover the sea.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[ywl]

Oh, the everlasting gospel is so general. I think many religions can be included in it. And it's so easy. I wish I was a barbarian. Sometimes, people know there is someone supernatural. But they don't know who really he is. They may think there are many gods and they worship them all. Will God be angry that people worship other gods or idols? Will God save them?

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RE: Another question will be how Jesus can save people who lives in a non-Christian family or country, where, the name of God is not even known. They worship other gods or people like Buddha or their emperors. For example, native Indians of America before European came, ancient oriental countries.

The universal way to salvation for barbarians is by means of the testimony of nature and the testimony of their own conscience. (Rom 1:18-20 and Rom 2:12-16)

The complexity of nature is adequate proof of intelligent design; which implies the existence of a creator. Everybody's conscience instinctively knows that the creator is a person of justice because God took pains to instill the human conscience with a sense of right and wrong so that people would anticipate having to answer for themselves someday. Even atheists instinctively know that things have to be made right, though they are wont to stifle their subconscious urges in such matters; which is a very bad habit to get into.

†. Rom 1:18 . .The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all impiety and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Though it's true that neither nature nor one's conscience has much to say about a Christ; acting upon their testimony is enough to get one's self spared the wrath of God. Here's a pertinent example.

†. Luke 18:10-14 . . Two men went to the Temple to pray: one was a Pharisee, and the other was a dishonest tax collector. The proud Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there. For I'm not predatory, I'm not dishonest, I'm not promiscuous, I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.

. . But the tax collector stood way in the back and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying: O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.

. . I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home cleared of all charges against him before God. For the proud will be humbled, but the humble will be honored.

There's neither a Jesus nor a cross in the tax collector's confession. There are only elements of the everlasting gospel preached by the angel in Rev 14:6-7

The tax collector simply believed there is a God, and he believed God is a judge, and he believed he was facing charges. Subsequently, the tax collector spoke into the air and begged for clemency— and he was in —thus proving that an acquittal is available to anyone who believes, and acts, upon the everlasting gospel.

†. Rev 14:6-7 . .Then I saw another angel flying across the sky, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth— to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people —saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.

The everlasting gospel contains nothing all that complicated. It merely states that:

1) there's a supreme being

2) He's to be recognized and respected

3) He's going to call the human race to account, and

4) the cosmos is the result of intelligent design.

Were I at liberty to do so, I would rename the angel's everlasting gospel and call it: The Barbarian's Gospel. Sophisticates with ThD's from Bible colleges and seminaries might scoff and dismiss the barbarian's gospel as oversimplified; but it is, nevertheless a very potent gospel and belief in it will easily save even the most ignorant Neanderthal that ever lived; and all without the availability of a Bible or the assistance of a missionary worker.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[christian08]

No. Those who worship other Gods, like Zeus wont be saved. Like Weber quoted from rom. But be careful a god or idol can be ANYTHING that's first before God. So money or girls could be idols...

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Will God be angry that people worship other gods?

The Bible's God has a problem with jealousy; which Webster's defines as: intolerant of rivals and/or unfaithfulness.

RE: or idols?

An idol, by definition, is inanimate. In order to satisfy the criteria of the everlasting gospel, one's god must be a real-life, sentient, intelligent being.

One's god must also be the creator of the entire cosmos rather than just one of its creators, like as if the cosmos was constructed by a team of gods.

Also, one's god cannot be something resembling a planet, or the sun, or a bug, or a bird, or a lizard or a human being; in other words, the god of the everlasting gospel has to be a form of life entirely alien to the cosmos and all of its matter, all of its energy, and all of its varieties of living things.

RE: They may think there are many gods and they worship them all.

One's god must be a lone, unique specimen. A community of gods doesn't satisfy the criteria of the everlasting gospel.

One's god must also be the final judge; with the wherewithal and the intention of dragging every last human being to justice some day.

One cannot get by with passively accepting the reality of a creator and do nothing about it; no, the everlasting gospel insists that they respond with fear and worship.

RE: And it's so easy.

It's not really as easy as you might think. Though the everlasting gospel is elementary, it's criteria is narrow, and very demanding.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[ywl]

Surely, we cannot fully understand God. But I think God like people to think and discuss God's word and understand him better. What I have been asking is not about believers but unbelievers. How God give them equal chance to be a believer as he give to believers and how they failed to be a believer? I think everyone should be given equal chance to be a believer. I did not find evidence that everyone are given the same chance. In my assumption, Christ would have also gone to Sheol and leave some gospel there. So all are given a chance. Maybe there are things I don't know.

Our Lord already did those things when He was crucified and dead for 3 days. Sheol were for people who didn't have faith, didn't believe in the Messiah, were already non-believers of their Creator and the prophecies to come OF the Messiah, unfortunately, like our faith in Jesus now, they made their decision back then and now wait therre still for the White Throne Judgement of our Lord. So when our Lord "decended" as the Apostles called it, He went to preach the Gospel to the ones in Paradise and to bring them up w/ Him, because OF their faith. Hope this helps my friend. At a time like this w/ this kind of teaching, i want to note that our God IS just and holy. We may not always understand his thoughts like He says in Isaiah, but we know He works ALL things for good. So even though we may not like some things, it's still the truth from the Lord and we need to just come to Him and pray for guidance, and His will to be done in our lives and not ours. I hope this helps, message me some more when ever you feel

 

[ywl]

That's really not so easy to satisfy everlasting gospel. For barbarians, it's really hard to think so much. They need to take care of a lot of things, like foods and beasts.
Imagining, I was born in a family who worship another god for example Zeus. And they are very faithful to their belief and tell me stories of Zeus everyday. Everyone around me say Zeus is the king of gods. Everyone worship Zeus. If I live in such a environment, how can I not worship Zeus. I don't think I can ever think of there is only one god and he is jealousy. So the everlasating gospel also doesn't work for me. How could I be saved? How could people lived such kind of life be saved by Christ?

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RE: Will God be angry that people worship other gods?

The Bible's God has a problem with jealousy; which Webster's defines as: intolerant of rivals and/or unfaithfulness.

RE: or idols?

An idol, by definition, is inanimate. In order to satisfy the criteria of the everlasting gospel, one's god must be a real-life, sentient, intelligent being.

One's god must also be the creator of the entire cosmos rather than just one of its creators, like as if the cosmos was constructed by a team of gods.

Also, one's god cannot be something resembling a planet, or the sun, or a bug, or a bird, or a lizard or a human being; in other words, the god of the everlasting gospel has to be a form of life entirely alien to the cosmos and all of its matter, all of its energy, and all of its varieties of living things.

RE: They may think there are many gods and they worship them all.

One's god must be a lone, unique specimen. A community of gods doesn't satisfy the criteria of the everlasting gospel.

One's god must also be the final judge; with the wherewithal and the intention of dragging every last human being to justice some day.

One cannot get by with passively accepting the reality of a creator and do nothing about it; no, the everlasting gospel insists that they respond with fear and worship.

RE: And it's so easy.

It's not really as easy as you might think. Though the everlasting gospel is elementary, it's criteria is narrow, and very demanding.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[christian08]

YWL... we are all given the same chance my friend. The only difference is some have listened to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, getting them ready even breaing them so they may hear the Gospel. Others CHOOSE to ignore the Holy Spirit, His convictions telling them what they here is right. So by ignoring, they are choosing to harden their hearts. Now it's not just a one time thing, it'll happen over and over and over again. The more they choose to ignore, soon enough they will choose to harden their hearts that they wont be able to see or understand anymore. Or even care for that matter, unfortunately... Now what eveidence my friend have you found that has you thinking their not given a fair chance?

 

[ywl]

Someone are born in a Chrisitian family, others may be born in a Buddhism family. Those who are born in a Christian family are more likely to become a Christian later. While, those born in a Buddhism family are more likely grown up to be a Buddhist. A baby accept whatever around it, it cannot choose to believe this or that, they basicly believe everything. I don't anticipate a person live in a Buddhism environment for his whole life become a Chrisitian. So you see clearly the difference in possiblities to be a Chrisitian for different people.

YWL... we are all given the same chance my friend. The only difference is some have listened to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, getting them ready even breaing them so they may hear the Gospel. Others CHOOSE to ignore the Holy Spirit, His convictions telling them what they here is right. So by ignoring, they are choosing to harden their hearts. Now it's not just a one time thing, it'll happen over and over and over again. The more they choose to ignore, soon enough they will choose to harden their hearts that they wont be able to see or understand anymore. Or even care for that matter, unfortunately... Now what eveidence my friend have you found that has you thinking their not given a fair chance?

 

[christian08]

Ok i understand... Yes to a certain degree there could be an "advantage" but it's never a guarantee that child raised christian will follow the Lord. Same for buddhists, jews etc... For example, for now at least, my brother has chosen to say there is know God and believes all this evolution theories. My brother and I were raised catholic, the teaching of the Lord was around us, BUT I still had to make my decision for myself, between the Lord and myself. The same for my brother, BUT you know the reason why my brother hasn't followed? B/c he goes off of what he sees in false teachings, he looks only at the people who claim christianity but then show hypocrisy. SO that being said, seeing those things or the way one was raised could even back fire and turn them the opposite way. YWL we will never understand everything my friend... Sometimes it's just a matter of faith and leaving it up to the Lord. So if our God says that all will hear the Gospel and be given chances, then I trust in what the Word says He is, Just.

 

[ywl]

I agree that we will never understand everything. I agree that it's a matter of faith and trust. I am just curious about these questions. Maybe the curiousity is just the sin we have. Merry Christmas.

Ok i understand... Yes to a certain degree there could be an "advantage" but it's never a guarantee that child raised christian will follow the Lord. Same for buddhists, jews etc... For example, for now at least, my brother has chosen to say there is know God and believes all this evolution theories. My brother and I were raised catholic, the teaching of the Lord was around us, BUT I still had to make my decision for myself, between the Lord and myself. The same for my brother, BUT you know the reason why my brother hasn't followed? B/c he goes off of what he sees in false teachings, he looks only at the people who claim christianity but then show hypocrisy. SO that being said, seeing those things or the way one was raised could even back fire and turn them the opposite way. YWL we will never understand everything my friend... Sometimes it's just a matter of faith and leaving it up to the Lord. So if our God says that all will hear the Gospel and be given chances, then I trust in what the Word says He is, Just.

 

[heymikey80]

I think actually it's interesting that those people who did live in a culture of Zeus actually were departing from that view when exposed to the Christian faith -- and as far as I know, it pretty-nearly obliterated Zeus worship.

The story setting that the Bible puts people in is not one of individuals having a chance or having no chance, but of all lineages tracing back to a point where they actually did have a close relationship with God, and intentionally broke it. At that point God's responsibilities are seriously reduced. Our forebears broke the relationship. We've inherited that broken status. Individually, we've also re-caused it, but if we're looking at whether this seems fair, it has to extend back to this prior condition as well.

We're not individuals. We're raised by people inheriting status before God, a status that's broken, and we perpetuate ignorance of that status instead of confronting a hard truth about ourselves.

 

[Krystabelle]

Someone are born in a Chrisitian family, others may be born in a Buddhism family. Those who are born in a Christian family are more likely to become a Christian later. While, those born in a Buddhism family are more likely grown up to be a Buddhist. A baby accept whatever around it, it cannot choose to believe this or that, they basicly believe everything. I don't anticipate a person live in a Buddhism environment for his whole life become a Chrisitian. So you see clearly the difference in possiblities to be a Chrisitian for different people.

Then you have got to know, I was a Buddhist. In fact, the more i try to study the Buddha scripts the more contradicting the scripts are. It was until 2006, not that I found God, but God found me. You see we never know how God works. He's mysterious and just. No matter what He gives a chance to everyone.

Just trust that He makes ALL things beautiful in His time

 

[christian08]

YWL... Curiousity my friend is NEVER a sin. Our curiousity, if searched right and with the open heart, will only lead us to further growth in the Lord (talking from personal experience). The only time it becomes sin is when we CHOOSE, key word, to dive into something we know we shouldn't or know the Lord says we shouldn't, THAT then would be a sin. But as for wondering, questioning, the Lord LOVES it because He can guide you the the answer and understanding, ONLY making your faith stronger...

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I agree that we will never understand everything. I agree that it's a matter of faith and trust. I am just curious about these questions. Maybe the curiousity is just the sin we have. Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you. Could you clarify your question about sin? Then we can be of more specific help to you.

Jeff