About churches

[Arikereba]

I'm not sure that this is the right place for this, but I'd rather not have *too* many people telling me I need to get in a spirit-filled Bible-believing church.

I go to a United Church of Canada church now. It's really liberal. How liberal? Last week we had a presentation on AIDS relief (I believe that World AIDS Day is December 1st, but we're celebrating the beginning of Advent this Sunday). We had a sermon on how Muslims worship the same God as Christians. They do civil unions for gay people. And I like that. It's not so "believe whatever you want, we don't care" as to be Unitarian Universalist, which I also like.

Well, I'm moving to the US. Naturally there won't be any UCC churches there. The UCC was created when Methodist, Presbyterian, and Congregationalist churches got together, and from what I've managed to find out the United Methodists are fairly close to the UCC both in doctrine and in practice. A denomination selector online says that I'm Methodist, Lutheran or Episcopalian--but this is all just theoretical. My intuition is that the Episcopalian church might be a little too formal and traditional for me--but my entire experience with Christianity consists of five months in the church I'm at now, and a few months of Catholic school in my youth, so I don't really know.

I remember the reflexive hostility I had for Christianity when I lived in the southern US before, when I thought that Christianity meant nothing more than the right to self-righteously condemn gays and feminists. I don't want to feel like that again. And I'm very nervous and scared about going back there, and trying to find a place for myself. It's so easy in the city where I live, where I've seen drag queens kiss each other in the streets and nobody really cares what you believe as long as it makes you happy.

I started writing this post because I wanted to hear a little bit about other people's experiences in various churches, so that I would have an inkling of what to expect, beyond just a formal statement of beliefs. But if anyone has been through something like this before and can give me some reassurance that I'm going to be okay, I would sincerely appreciate it.

 

[Shekinahs]

Blessings Arikereba,

Have you considered the Unity churches? They are a liberal church but not as liberal as Unitarian churches. I've visited a Unity church a few times and I enjoyed the service and they have very open Christian ideas. I have visted a Unitarian church and it was not my cup of tea. I agreed with one aspect of it but disagreed with many others.

~ShekinahMoon~

http://www.unityonline.org/

This page explains their beliefs.

http://www.unityonline.org/discover_faq.htm

 

[that one guy]

Well, being from the south, I can tell you that your impressions of the church down here are incorrect.


There are those who are undeniably comtemptful of homosexuals. However, my church, and no church that I have ever been to condones such animosity.

Homosexuality is clearly sinful. Feminism is cultural. The culture in the south is much different than up north. However, if you are a staunch feminist, you probably do not appreciate what the Bible has to say about the woman's role in a marraige.

The problem I have with liberal churches like yours is that they have no biblical backing for their assertions about CHristianity.

I believe that women shoudl have the same rights as men. I also believe that God intended for the woman to be the nurturing member of a marraige.

I have no contempt for homosexuals, however, I believe that it is a sinful lifestyle, that homosexuals are no more fit to lead a church than adulterers and that a family is made up of a husband and wife.

My wife in now way feels inferior to me, and I do not govern her as if she is my servant. We have equal rights in our family, but biblically fundamental roles.

THat doesn't mean that she does all the cooking and cleaning (especially since I enjoy both) but it does mean that we follow the biblical guidlines for a marraige.

Liberal Christianity is just a white washed version of the fundamentals of Christianity and is conformed to fit into the perceived social values of our society.

However, I figure a wrong Christian is better than not being a Christian at all.

 

[Shekinahs]

Blessings,

Hmmmm, I think she was looking for ideas on finding a church that fit her not a sermon on why the type of church she is looking for is wrong in your view

Folks just can't be helpful.

~ShekinahMoon~

 

[that one guy]

I was just explaining that she should consider the doctrine of more than just liberal churches.

That is helpful.

 

[Arikereba]

Err, thank you.
Yes, I have a basically different opinion on how much of the Bible can be trusted as the infallible word of God. Yes, I am a feminist. If I am a wrong Christian, well, yeah, those are my two choices: being a wrong Christian or not one at all. A belief in a God who'd ordain different roles for men and women is, to me, not compatible with a just and loving God. I guess it's hard to see why being the 'nurturing' one is a bad thing if you're not like me, a woman with barely a nurturing bone in her body.

I have seen what so many of my friends have gone through because of their churches, the fear and loathing that can result from continually being told that you personally are responsible for the horribly painful death of a perfect man. I have lived in the South before, and I recognize the distinction between the most visible parts of conservative Christianity and the rest of it, and I recognize that lots of what I saw was filtered through my own adolescent angst. But the parts that I'm scared of are definitely there. I'm still a new Christian trying to stay on the straight and narrow, as it were, and I don't think that getting sent home in tears every week's going to do me much good.

I am by nature irreverent, rebellious, and snarky. I fear that I couldn't go into a conservative church without some occasional snickering and snide comments in my head. And I don't think that snickering and snide comments in church are good for me as a Christian. The formation of doctrine is something where I don't place a huge level of importance on what I learn in church anyway: I read the Bible, I read a little theology, and if I go to a church and they're preaching about how the husband is the head of the family, I'm just going to roll my eyes and tune out for the next twenty minutes. I'm not proud of that, any more than I'm proud of my snarkiness or my tendency to burst into tears whenever I get harshly criticized. But, at least for now, I need a place where I'm going to feel safe and reverent and open to new ideas.

And, as I said, this isn't something I really care to debate any further.

 

[Calvanist]

Dear Arikereba

I found it very interesting to read your article, but could I just mention a few things.

"I have seen what so many of my friends have gone through because of their churches, the fear and loathing that can result from continually being told that you personally are responsible for the horribly painful death of a perfect man."

Like it or not, we are all responsible for the death of Christ, it is OUR sin that nailed him their, mine, yours, and the jews that nailed him there. By very nature we are "dead in our sin" and "haters of God" (Eph 2, Romans 1). The fact is that if we were there we would have nailed him there to. Yes, it is tragic, but thanks be to God, who changes haters of God into lovers of God.

The fact of the matter is this. Churches that just make people "feel good" are no churches at all. The idea of the church is to convict people, to awaken them by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is how revivals started in the past, not by making people feel comfortable.

"I read the Bible, I read a little theology"

Thats good, but really none of them can do anything for you unless they are affecting your heart. There are lots of 'christians' who know lots of things but are not really saved and the Holy Sprirt has never changed their heart.

"I fear that I couldn't go into a conservative church without some
occasional snickering and snide comments in my head"

So what if that "conservative church" was preaching the word of God. Is that what makes you snicker, is that what makes you think of snide comments? It seems to me that it's not really the people your mad at, you seem to be angry at God.

But I am not here to judge, that is between you and God. Forgive me if I sounded to harsh.

In Christ

 

[Fideist]

I'm not sure that this is the right place for this, but I'd rather not have *too* many people telling me I need to get in a spirit-filled Bible-believing church.

I go to a United Church of Canada church now. It's really liberal. How liberal? Last week we had a presentation on AIDS relief (I believe that World AIDS Day is December 1st, but we're celebrating the beginning of Advent this Sunday). We had a sermon on how Muslims worship the same God as Christians. They do civil unions for gay people. And I like that. It's not so "believe whatever you want, we don't care" as to be Unitarian Universalist, which I also like.

So, I can assume you are looking for a liberal church that is similar to the one you're moving from?

Well, I'm moving to the US. Naturally there won't be any UCC churches there.

I started writing this post because I wanted to hear a little bit about other people's experiences in various churches, so that I would have an inkling of what to expect, beyond just a formal statement of beliefs. But if anyone has been through something like this before and can give me some reassurance that I'm going to be okay, I would sincerely appreciate it.

Actually, there are UCC churches here! Only they are the United Church of Christ. The level of liberalness is about the same as you describe. But be warned, there are consevative UCC churches. Just very few. UCC has a web site and listings for local churches. Let me know if you have trouble, and I'll post a URL. Next most liberal is Episcopalian. They are pretty much the same as Anglicans. Catholic liturgy, minus the statuary and kneelers. Next would be The Lutheran Evangelical Church. It sounds odd, but it's not the same as an Evangelical church. That portion of the Lutherans became the Missouri Synod! If fundamentalism is not for you, give the Synod a wide berth. They're pretty much literalists. Next would be some Presbyterian churches. Then the Disciples of Christ (music version).

Any of these should be comfortable for you.

 

[Radio-Free Gnosis]

The purpose of Church is to convict people?!?!?

God and Faith should be treated as a blessing, not a burden.
I won't hijack the thread to fo on a lengthy rant, but...jeez.

 

[Shekinahs]

The purpose of Church is to convict people?!?!?

God and Faith should be treated as a blessing, not a burden.
I won't hijack the thread to fo on a lengthy rant, but...jeez.

Blessings,

Me holding my tongue as well.

This like me reading a thread by a conservative looking to for a conservative church and me posting about why there are issues with going to a conservative church.

And she already said she didn't want to hear all of that.

Amazing.

~ShekinahMoon~

 

[Warrior Poet]

The fact of the matter is this. Churches that just make people "feel good" are no churches at all. The idea of the church is to convict people, to awaken them by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is how revivals started in the past, not by making people feel comfortable.

I will...

Areed the strictly feel good churches are a......how you say shakey....*shrug*...

....but that is not the job of the church thats called evagilising...meant to be done out side the church....the biblcal NT church did nothing like that, they met together in praise and worship no one lead and everyone participated spirtually, a verse, a song, a prayer, anything to contribute spirtually

.....bad form Peter.. bad form...

You want a liberal church...you can find one...you want a perfect liberal church you arent gonna find one. YOU ARE A LIBERAL THINKER....do you know what that mean...it mean you ask questions and when you dont see it that way you ask .....cause you doubt the mind of man...but belive in the core of the bible, Jesus was a liberal thinker.

You will not find a liberal church that meets all your theological needs, or MATCHES your theology, once again you are in a liberal state of mind. You need one to finds you that suits you. My mom did a dangerous thing she sacrificied her spirit to my brother and I to stay in a church she wasnt happy in, but wouldnt leave cause she waneted her two troubled teens in the best youth group in the city.

Its paying off. ( :HUG: to you mom )

Im not saying go that far but in the realm of churches your gonna turn your head or look away about something...I recommend a small church with kids/youth support. a good worship and leader. You need to hear a speaker that makes you think and guve his side or his take on it, when you agree with him more then disagree, and he makes you leave thinking in a new light or with a new twist.... you found your church. Avoid churchs with officers, and constistutions, and the political stuff.....that not what its about....

Warrior Poet

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think I agree with WP. Find a church small enough to feel like part of a community - where people know each other and have relationships. In this kind of church, you will, I'm sure, sometimes feel challenged by someone else's belief, but you will not feel too intimidated to challenge them in return.

I think the purpose of the church is for us to help each other be the community of God together on earth, rather than primarily to teach the Bible and preserve doctrine. Preserving and respecting the Bible and teaching doctrine serve the function of being the Body of Christ, not the other way around. I'm afraid many, many conservative churches have these reversed.


So, fo myself, I never expect to find a church where I agree with everything. I actually don't ever expect to find a church where I will NEVER roll my eyes at anything said from the pulpit. I do expect to have genuine relationships where people care deeply about each other's spiritual welfare, and these relationships are characterized by real mutuality. That is the most important thing I look for in a church.

Maybe focusing on these qualities will be helpful to you, too.

 

[Willy]

Look into the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. This is a church with a deep connection to the tradition and one struggling to be open to the challenges of the present and the future. As in any church body, each congregation is different from the other. Where are you moving?