A skin cell is human life. It is not a human being. I don't know why you keep wanting to go around this circle, but it won't change just because you post again.
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A skin cell is human life. It is not a human being. I don't know why you keep wanting to go around this circle, but it won't change just because you post again.Human life is a human being and should be protected. I don't know why you keep wanting to go around this circle with me but it won't change just because you post again.
A skin cell is human life. It is not a human being. I don't know why you keep wanting to go around this circle, but it won't change just because you post again.
Neither does a fertilized egg. Provide evidence otherwise.I hadn't, I had left the thread until they posted to me once again, so I was answering them.
This debate is not over a skin cell but a fertilized egg so I agree, a skin cell by itself is not human life because a skin cell doesn't have a soul.
Neither does a fertilized egg. Provide evidence otherwise.
Psalm 139
13-14
For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
16:Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
NxNW said: ↑
In my example, you can get as close as you want.
coffee4u said: The deciding factor, according to you, was the quality of being counted. Distance is irrelevant.
Human life is a human being
I believe human life, human beings and even personhood occurs from the moment of conception
I believe the unborn should have as many rights as the born.
Saying it doesn't make it true. A hangnail is living human tissue, but it's not a human being.
I've already explained why this is impossible. Do 1% of zygotes contain two souls, for the identical twins? Or does the second soul wait on the sidelines until the split? Does the first soul wait in the room next door during copulation?
You're trying to assign rights to the unborn that adult human beings don't have -- the right to seize another's body without permission. Slavery has been abolished.
The 'plan' is the sum total of all of the sequences of moves that will eventually force checkmate. Black can play anything he wants, but the plan still accounts for it. You're thinking too linearly.
All things that need to be done, will be done. God doesn't care if you choose to wear black or blue or odd socks today. This is your free will.
God's overall plan is to collect a people unto himself, a people who have chosen to follow him. It is also your free will to choose to be an Atheist. Unless one of your actions impedes God's plan then God has no plans for you since you have already chosen not to follow him.
The point is God foresaw that. He already knew that the driver would change his route and he knew that the archduke would be assassinated. That was the driver's free will. if the archduke dying that day had harmed the overall plan, God would have had some way of preventing his death. One thing we do know is that God does not orchestrate or cause sin. The person who assassinated the archduke committed murder, this was their own free will too.
Your argument is taking his assassination and the World war as being absolutely tied together, it isn't. Germany wanted war, it would have happened if the archduke had died that day or not, only the blame would have been placed on something else.
No, I'm saying that when God created it was all very good, Genesis 1:31.
He did not plan, or will, that Adam would disobey him. He knew that he would, and made provision for it - but he did not say "this is my creation which is VERY good; now, how can I mess it up and destroy it?"
I don't see how you aren't getting this.... if god has foreknowledge of all the decisions people will make in a given universe at a given time when he creates the universe, then ultimately everything is his responsibility. If he had created things differently, then some of those decisions would be made differently. There's no escaping that.
If god knew Adam would disobey him when he created Adam, then he had the option of leaving him as is and having Adam sin, or creating Adam in a way where Adam would not disobey him.
If god chose to create Adam in a way that he knew he would disobey, then that decision is also on god.
The only way to resolve the idea that god thinks it's very good is if god intended for Adam to disobey and have the whole fall of mankind thing play out.
You’re not understanding the point. The debate is about morality. In this case Gods morality and you cannot apply science to morality. That is what NxNW was claiming that God was evil and using his acts in the bible. So, I was defending Gods actions as morally right according to his standard and capacity.I'd argue that again, until you can demonstrate the god in question exists, it's all unevidenced assertion regardless. You may as well be arguing about whether Darth Vader was good or evil based on what was written about him in the Star Wars scripts.
And you can certainly apply science to any testable claim the bible makes. The key word is testable though. That being said, if all you have to go on is untestable claims, then you are probably not justified in believing the claims to begin with.
First how do you know this. How do you work out Gods thinking? Second using human logic if there is evil then there has to be good otherwise evil has no meaning. If people are created to not be able to do evil deeds, then they must not be able to know evil. If that is the case, then people would not understand what good is either or love and hate. What are we left with then people being puppets or robots or some unimaginative blob, who knows?That's a cop out. If god is all knowing and created people (as virtually all christians believe), then he created them both with the capacity to be evil, and with the foreknowledge that they would become evil in time. That puts the ultimate responsibility back on him. He could have made people who would not have chosen to commit evil deeds.
Yes you cannot become a serial killer because that is associated with a mental disorder that takes away free will. But that does not mean everyone does not have free will in what they choose to do or not to do. Mental disorders affect the brain and change a persons normal ability to think rationally away. That is why people can be declare criminally insane. It sort of takes away their responsibility to really know the difference between right and wrong. But you having a so called normal brain do have a conscience and know the difference.And before you try to argue the free will rebuttal, it doesn't apply. I am not a serial killer, and I would never choose to become a serial killer. Theoretically I could become a serial killer, but I would never make the decision to do so. That's just the way my brain is wired.
I think you’re doing a lot of assuming and speculating about how God does things. To know for sure, I think you’d have to know the mind of God. But using human logic maybe that is how humans are made. There may be what is regarded as a normal range but to have that normal range there must be all the subnormal possibilities like the possibility that humans can have mental disorders. Just like a person can have a mental disorder a human can also be incredibly intelligent discovering treatments to help those mental disorders. Just like love means nothing without hate and good means nothing without evil. Otherwise once again if God starts cutting bits out of us, we would not be free human agents capable of many possibilities.If god created me that way, then he could have created everyone else with similar wiring so that they wouldn't ever become serial killers. Likewise, this argument can be used for any evil behavior.
Not really. I always picture Gods position as the butterfly effect. If he starts messing with peoples lives and their thinking, then they are not longer in control of their lives and free will. This can have consequences for others and being a free agent. Every event that happens has 100’s of connected decisions and acts and if one is changed it can affect an entire chain of events that could create chaos.If he decided to create people wired to become serial killers one day, knowing that they'd go out on a murder spree at some point, then ultimately that's on him too. He could have created people not to do that, and decided to do so anyway.
Yes that’s Sam Harris’s idea the Moral landscape. Though I think he has some good points with this idea using human well-being as the measure for morality has been shown to be unreliable. It takes a utilitarian approach and morality is measured by humans happiness and pleasure which can mean anything from self sacrifice to self pleasure (hedonism) and sadism.I addressed this in slightly more detail in another post, but it largely is based upon well-being. That's not to say there aren't possibly grey areas, but the vast majority of moral questions really aren't that hard to figure out, and a god is not needed to do so.
But once again you are assuming a lot and perhaps injecting your perception of what you think it was like for God and how he should have acted. You don't know that and to know everything involved in when God created the universe and everything you would have to know the mind of God. So your speculating is unqualified.You can not have all things happening according to gods plan, and have free will at the same time. They are mutually exclusive propositions. It's a contradiction to say both are happening at the same time.
Yes as Christians we can often sin and do our own will. I know I have and then later have come full circle to realize that my way did not work and the later seen the wisdom of Gods way. Gods plan is not happening now with many people sinning and rejecting him. The bible said God desires that all should be saved.For example, could you ever decide to do something that doesn't align with god's plan?
I don't understand this logic. If your boss made a plan at work to do something and then you decided change that plan and not follow it then whose fault is that. You had the choice to follow the plan but didn't. God has a plan and people had the choice to follow it. They didn't so now that plan has been put in jeopardy and is causing all sorts of problems. Just like you not following your bosses plan and the wheels come off his new project and have ramifications for everyone and the company.If yes, then not all things happen according to god's plan.
If no, then you don't have free will.
This bible verse is read out of context. Paul is writing to the Ephesians who are already Christians. He is telling them that God has a plan for them. God knows they would be saved and therefore he always had a plan for them. You speculate that God set a plan for everyone in place and we have no choice yet the bible is full of verses that talk about making choices and choosing to believe or not.I can do that too...If God knows our free will choices, do we still have free will? | CARM.org
Ephesians 1:11 - All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.
So what you have is a biblical contradiction. All things are done according to god's plan based on what he decided in the beginning. That means anyone that "chose" to reject him was acting in accordance with the plan that god decided on right from the start.
If the people that rejected god were acting in accordance with the plan that god himself devised, then it was god's decision to have those people reject him. It would therefore be heinously immoral and sadistic to kill and then torture those people in the afterlife.
So are you saying there was nothing in his upbringing or that he may have been born with that caused him to have delusions or neurological disorders that caused him to not understand his acts as evil like you or I would understand them.Nonsense. I don't know everything about Jeffrey Dahmer, however I don't need to know everything about his life story or personality to know he committed evil acts.
But we cannot apply our understanding of morality to God. It is God who created us and is applying his morality to us and not the other way around. The police have the right at times to break the laws they apply like breaking the speeding laws to get to a crime or breaching peoples rights to privacy to get information. People can breach moral objectives such as killing someone in self defense of their family or stopping a evil dictator like Hitler in war who is killing millions.To say you can't make a moral judgment about a person (or god) until you have a complete and total understanding of that person or thing is silly. If morality has an objective basis, then god is also bound to that moral standard. If he commits an evil or immoral act, he's not excused from it because he has immense power.... if anything he should be held to a higher standard than we are.
How can a person give a citation for this. We are talking about morality and theology. You asked a theological question. Why would you want a scientific citation.Citation needed
And probably good acts and without love and hate. Not sure what sort of creatures we may be, perhaps some alien ones that just sit around looking at the light without much meaning to life. Only acting when some chemical impulse urge them to.The implication would be a world without evil acts.
If you were placed in a situation where you had to defend yourself or family from someone trying to kill you you would quickly find the desire to take them out. What you are not considering is that most people don't desire to kill or plan to kill. It often happens as a result of other situations that involve heightened emotions like hate, anger and jealousy. In that sense everyone can relate and these same feelings make us humans as they also bring love and compassion.Does my lack of desire to kill, steal, rape etc. make me less human than someone that does?
As mentioned above rape stems form a human emotion of lust gone to the extreme. If we rid ourselves of lust we also rid ourselves of the act of love making. There can be far reaching implications that we cannot understand by God meddling around with human sovereignty and the right to autonomy.Ask a rape victim if they prefer living in a world where rape exists because the “grand tapestry of existence”, which includes evil acts, makes helping an old lady across the street more “meaningful”.
Well, that's not what the bible says. It sounds like you're conveniently interpreting things to fit your argument to me.... How do you justify your position?
Since the egg came from the mother's own body the zygote didn't seize anything and lol you really equate pregnancy with slavery? Whatever.
But God is vicariously responsible in creating entities with flawed capacities like Adam and Eve had in regards to being able to choose and knowing they would screw up more likely than not.This is the whole point, God wants mankind to choose and you can only do that with free will. When Eve was offered the fruit she could have stopped and talked to God, when Eve gave Adam the fruit he could have done the same, they didn't.
He knows when each sin will occur but he doesn't endorse it, encourage it or cause it.
And the Bible doesn't necessarily claim what you interpret it to say either, that's the thing with God's supposedly clear revelation, it's not.The Bible doesn't say what you claim it says. You're insisting on an overly narrow interpretation.
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