abortion?

[arj1981]

arj1981,
The debate however is whether it is murder, that she thinks not and others think so doesn’t tell us whether it is or not and who is right. Furthermore if one hides behind the law then they had better hope they always agree with the current law.
Firstly:
The question is how can they say life doesn’t start at conception? One cant observe as a sperm becoming a fully grown adult, and one cant observe an egg becoming a fully grown adult, but one can observe as a sperm and egg uniting and fertilizing, and becoming a fully grown adult.
Secondly:
The male has conceived the life with the woman, so both knew what the consequences were for the woman’s body.

But scripture isn’t the only benchmark to demonstrate the unreality of the claims.

As to the first criticism above, merely saying that some people think differently is not a good way to move forward. If someone advocated genocide for example would you agree it was a viable viewpoint for the debate merely on the basis that someone thinks it is? Similarly if someone thinks pigs can fly, would you say although you personally don’t think they can it’s a viable viewpoint to be considered as someone thinks it is?
I mean is that a parameter you want? Personally I think it will destroy any meaningful debate. which of course favours the current position

BMS, like the poster this was addressed to, u fail to realize the point I was making in presenting those arguments. No one said you had to agree with them or even view them as viable reasons. Who would honestly lose any sleep over the fact that you, Sketcher and SoS chose to disagree with them. I know I personally wouldn't, so do u see how insignif this is? I can't speak for everyone else, but I can tell u that that wasn't my objective bc it seems like a pure waste of time. I wasn't looking for people to refute their claims. Again, who cares? After u've heard each other out and u still don't agree...ok. Life goes on.

In listing those arguments I was trying to illustrate the different shades of gray on this topic by pointing out the varying opinions in this thread AS EXAMPLES.

Sketcher, I can't help u. Nothing I'm saying is registering. All of ur responses echo the same sentiment no matter what I say and I don't feel like rehashing it bit by bit. How old are u? U seem pretty young. U'r still operating under the illusion that abortion has ONE universal definition which applies to ALL 7 billion people, but it doesn't - not in any way shape or form. U continue to argue moot points without realizing it. There are so many shades of gray here NOTHING u can say or do will turn it into plain black and white universally. That's what u aren't cluing into for some reason. Don't know how to make u see that when it is starring u right in the face yet u remain completely blind to it. [FOR EXAMPLE] Just read this thread, one poster doesn't view abortion as murder bc she only defines murder as unlawful death, some will say life doesn't start at conception so they aren't killing life if they choose to abort within the first few weeks, another feels bc they are male they can't tell a woman what she can or can't do with their bodies regardless of scripture, etc. All u keep doing is posting more scripture, do u not get that u can't define the terms of abortion for 7 billion people (even if u ARE using scripture)?

BMS, like Sketcher, u do realize that u simply tackled 3 out of 7 billion reasons, right? That's not a very big dent at all, if u ask me. That's why I'm not impressed. But I digress. Sketcher's response in return was: You have not gotten into why you believe abortion is a gray area at all, at least not with me.

Now, do u see why I am at my wits end, SOS? That's not true. In fact, it is HIGHLY incorrect and inaccurate. Since this post (on page 2), I have been doing NOTHING but explaining to him EXACTLY what it is I mean by that shades of gray comment:

Again, as someone said earlier, this isn't just a Christian matter. It is a womanly matter, first and foremost, and not all of them are Christians.

So, how can scripture fully prohibit abortion in any way, shape or form when to a degree it all boils down to interpretation? U are acting like there is one universal modus operandi at play here and the entire world is of one accord. This isn't the case.

Someone said this earlier but NO Christian has a monopoly on what constitutes as life and murder when it comes to defining the terms of abortion. That's not getting through to u no matter how many times it's been repeated. Some might choose their position based on life experiences, scientific data or cultural influences, etc.

Not everyone bases their reasoning off the same logic. Not everyone needs A LAW to begin with. Not everyone needs the Bible to say Commandment 11: Thou shalt not abort or it is permissible for thou to abort in order for them to decide for themselves...

Let people be without ridiculing them, harassing them with out-of-context scriptures, giving them guilt trips that will be with them for the rest of their life, and telling them it is demonic when, one, they might not even be Christians, two, God isn't pro-life, and three, there might be a medical emergency in which this procedure is necessary.

These are just a few of the quotes from posts that were directly addressed to Sketcher which illustrate shades of gray, yet no matter how redundant it has all gotten, it is obvious all of my efforts were futile, bc he is simply not picking up what it is I'm putting down. Instead, BMS, he just keeps offering up more scripture and the same explanations u just provided...

And all of those are losing arguments. I can get into why, if you wish.

...without ever realizing this IS ^ the moot point I've been referencing this entire time. It all just keeps going over his head for some reason . And it is not my fault. My English is perfect and these statements are easy to comprehend, so for whatever reason??? nothing I'm saying is registering PERIOD and he is NOWHERE near mentally computing this fact. Again, for whatever reason??? It is really baffling to me. I'm not Christ. I can't perform miracles here. So I just have to write it off as a lost cause and move on bc I am about all out of analogies and ideas and we were going NOWHERE fast.

 

[arj1981]

As to the first criticism above, merely saying that some people think differently is not a good way to move forward.

I feel this is incorrect. This is the reality that many like to ignore. Case and point. As a result, it gets us nowhere. It implies that ur opinion is the final authority on the issue and we all know that is NOT the case. Who can truly evolve when they think they are the only ones right or the only ones with a valid opinion and everyone else is wrong even before they are heard? That's kinda like that r word again. Geesh. I would think that's how genocides breed...when there's a tyrant in office. Everyone has a voice and people should be willing to hear each other out before forming an opinion, so negating the fact that there are varying opinions leads to close mindedness and stagnation. Not evolution and advancement.

 

[brightmorningstar]

arj1981,
I am not interested in what you think of Sketcher’s view, I agree more with Sketcher’s view, it is your views that I am challenging. There are no shades of grey.
A life starts at conception as explained. That’s reality not opinion.

 

[brightmorningstar]

arj1981,

I feel this is incorrect.

So are you prepared to accept the attributes of God I put to you, bc if you arent I would say you do not feel it is incorrect and your statement is deception.

This is the reality that many like to ignore. Case and point. As a result, it gets us nowhere. Who can truly evolve when they think they are the only ones right or the only ones with a valid opinion and everyone else is wrong?

Who can truley evolve when they insist unreality is reality.

I would think that's how genocides breed...when there's a tyrant in office.

So you dont know then. But if each to their own as you said, and that God is cruel, why would you consider them tyrants?

 

[arj1981]

arj1981,
I am not interested in what you think of Sketcher’s view, I agree more with Sketcher’s view, it is your views that I am challenging. (again, u aren't challenging my views bc I'm not competing. Nothing's going to change.) There are no shades of grey.
A life starts at conception as explained. (Again, this is just an opinion as well as that's been explained also.) That’s reality not opinion.

Here are my personal views on the issue.

 

[arj1981]

arj1981,
It helped me, so how can you say it didn’t help just because it didn’t help you? That post was directed at SOS. Not you.
that was my point to you, your view allows all opinions whether reason or not.
Ok but the other may not condemn you for your personal reasons for being pro-choice, so who cares.
Are you? I don’t think so.
So do you care about genocide in the world or do you say each to his own?
So I assume you are happy that people who commit genocide are also completely submitted to to Jesus Christ and His Father, the Abrahamic God from the Holy Bible, providing they claim it, bc you said ‘each to his own’ and ‘God and Christ are very much capable of many cruel things ‘
Ah, we could debate that.
You. The Lord taketh away is not the same as humans taking away. A view that life starts at the point of puberty is a view, but as explained the reality is life has to start at conception.

BMS, I really can't help u. Ur making all the same assertions Sketcher did and I can tell it is all gonna go over ur head as well bc u seem very close minded and not trying to hear but simply want to be heard. So, have at it. Nothing ur saying appears worth rehashing. Just review all my answers to Sketch and I've probably addressed everything you're about to say next. No thanks. U don't hear too well.

 

[arj1981]

arj1981,
So are you prepared to accept the attributes of God I put to you, bc if you arent I would say you do not feel it is incorrect and your statement is deception.
Who can truley evolve when they insist unreality is reality.
So you dont know then. But if each to their own as you said, and that God is cruel, why would you consider them tyrants? bc God is cruel is the reason tyrants exist in the first place. Duh. How does this qualify as unreality?

See, I really can't help u here. If u think insignificant word play combined with illogical statements are akin to making a valid point, then it is ALL going to go down hill from here.

 

[arj1981]

I vaguely recall that a similar story made headlines a couple of years ago (it was reported on the View) when a doctor decided to terminate a pregnancy in order to save a mother of three.

Thanks to another thread here, I found the news article I was referencing above.

The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise.

Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life.

Varying shades of gray within this single paragraph.

 

[brightmorningstar]

arj1981,
Regarding your linked info. It points me to your post #134 is that right?
So, as you have maintained from the beginning that The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away (Job 1:21), and since we believe life starts at the moment of conception, it is ALL fair game to God AND Christ.
Firstly God and Christ is a strange statement, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
If all is fair game to God, leave it to God. Abortion is the mother deciding whether to keep the baby.

That post was directed at SOS. Not you.

Then as it’s a public debating forum you need to be specific about whom it doesn’t help.

Ur making all the same assertions Sketcher did

Let me stop you there. Then address them as that should be telling you there might be something wrong with your views. One thing is for sure, it isnt going over our head as we are addressing what you are saying.

Nothing ur saying appears worth rehashing.

All of it does as it is why we think your views are faulty. You telling us you don’t think they are worthy merely implies to us your views cant stand the test.

See, I really can't help u here.

You have helped, you have affirmed you see God as cruel and why cruel people exist. That implies to me you support genocide. – just showing where your thinking lead me to assume. Correct me if I am wrong.

The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise.

So? You said each to their own and that God is cruel, you aren’t complaining either way are you?

 

[brightmorningstar]

arj1981,

I think it would be emotionally scarring and draining on a woman to carry a child 9 months after it was produced from being raped. How traumatic would that be? I just know I was right out of high school when I got pregnant and this option came up. I hid out in a hotel and carried my Bible with me. I prayed ALL night and all day and I asked the Lord, should I have this child? He responded, 'Have this child.' I obeyed His orders despite the fact that my family was pressuring me to abort. I'm SO in love with my daughter, let me tell u. Times have been hard, but nothing can surpass that love. Children are awesome!

EDIT: Of course, wait til u are older to conceive so u won't have to struggle financially like I did.

Sounds sound! Have we got crossed wires somewhere?

 

[brightmorningstar]

As a follow up to the thread, to show a scripture that supports abortion.
It would be reasonable and logical to suggest that passages such as Psalm 139 and Jeremiah 1 do say that God knows and knits together people in the womb. Thats what it says.
But one can easily argue even accepting the women is the focus of the Exodus 21 passage, that no harm done means the baby is born prematurely rather than dies. most women would agree.

I fail to see even the where the straws are that pro-choice are clutching at in scripture. One seems to be ignoring three clear scriptures in favour of one unclear one. Even then, abortion would be where men strive and cause it, not pre arranged choice by the mother in a hospital.
I mean what sort of world of fanatasy is the pro-choice view in.

As to start of life, thats a no brainer. That different countries have different limits just indicates they dont even know exactly when according to the criteria they themselves have decided is the only criteria that can be used. Its outside reality, of course life starts at conception, it is observable.

 

[arj1981]

Chris, I knew it wasn't just me.

 

[lux et lex]

What is this?

 

[arj1981]

It is an egg. I'll bite. I want to see where this is going. I would love to get back to productive conversation. LOL.

 

[arj1981]

Maybe this will reroute things.

Thanks to another thread here, I found the news article I was referencing above.

The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise.

Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life.

Varying shades of gray within this single paragraph.

I want to add, I'm not down with calling myself pro-life if people like this bishop are the company I'd keep. I would never want to be so heartless. That's why I proudly say that I am a pro-choice Christian.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

What is this?

A baby chicken.

 

[chris4243]

What is this?

An egg; my guess is an unfertilized chicken egg.

 

[arj1981]

Maybe this will reroute things.



I want to add, I'm not down with calling myself pro-life if people like this bishop are the company I'd keep. I would never want to be so heartless. That's why I proudly say that I am a pro-choice Christian.

Plz don't retort with the stereotypical '...but u don't mind a cruel God...' that's NOT my doing. I have no control over the content found in scripture, although, some would like to think I do. That's not the case. I submit to His divine authority bc I fear God (as it also says to do in scripture). Plain and simple.

So I don't judge this process one way or the other. I just believe, The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away (Job 1:21) even when it comes to human life as that's been revealed time and time again through scripture. Again, if CHRIST wasn't spared (Matt 16:21-23) how is anyone else (man, woman or child) safe? Therefore, like every other person other than Christ, I'm a mere mortal, a lowly servant of God, who wouldn't dare question His decision.

Job 40: 19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

^^^^ That is some serious mojo we are talking about here. I know I wouldn't want to contest this. I'm just like Ok, Lord. Whatever u say.

 

[lux et lex]

A baby chicken.

Did you know that most chicken farms where eggs are harvested do not have any roosters present? Chicken lay eggs without fertilization.

An egg; my guess is an unfertilized chicken egg.

Could be. Maybe it's fertilized. Hard to tell.

Next questions:

What is this?

What is this?

And finally, what is this?

 

[katautumn]

I believe one of those is a dog embryo. The other is a human embryo at four weeks into gestation.