-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
abortion?
- Thread starter chasingsafety
- Start date
SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
No, but usually the case is that someone (the donor) had to die so that the life of the recipient could continue and the same would be true of the scenario in question. I'm not saying it is "good" that the baby be aborted for the life of the mother or the other way around, I'm just saying that I'm in favor of it being an option for the couple to decide, it would definitely be a hard choice and I'm sure many women would choose the life of the child over theirs. This though is the only possible exception I would make.
Upvote
0
I've been saying throughout this entire thing: I haven't really thought about it. Don't have a say on the issue one way or the other but I would change that to say now that I've thought about it through participating in this discussion (which I admitted was my very first) like u, I would support abortion in certain circumstances so... I must be a pro choice Christian too then. I learn something new about myself every day. Indeed. It's called an epiphany, not hypocrisy.
Pro-life describes the moral, political and ethical opposition to elective abortion and support for its legal prohibition or restriction.
According to this definition, I believe pro-life IS the blanket opposition of abortion regardless of the circumstances. Well, that's EXACTLY what I've been arguing against this entire time (u can attest to this) so how is that stance inconsistent with everything else I've been saying? B4 this discussion, I didn't have a clear idea about these two concepts bc I've never really thought about it. Now, after openly listening to both sides of the argument and hearing nothing but a lot of shoddy baseless rhetoric and self-righteous judgments coming from u, Sketcher and other pro-lifers throughout this thread, I've formed an opinion on the matter and I don't side with u. Isn't that well within my rights? U are even partly responsible for my decision, so if this isn't the results u were going for u should probably work on ur delivery and become more knowledgeable of scripture.
Now, what I'm wondering, if after everything was said and done and I reneged on my opinion and denounced pro-choice to choose pro-life, would u still try to make this out to be a case of hypocrisy
. Me thinks not. How ironic.
Upvote
0
SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
OK, so your in favor of killing children now, tell me how is that my fault?
Upvote
0
Sure, but the same goes with the case of someone needing an organ. If I need an organ am I justified in murdering someone for it? Or am I limited to murdering only my own children for the organ, after talking it over with my spouse? Or maybe murder isn't justified even to save someone's life?
Upvote
0
Sketcher
Born Imperishable
The issue of abortion is a human life issue. The issue at hand is protecting innocent human life. You don't need the Bible to know that a fetus is innocent, human, and alive. Should innocent human life be protected? Most moral people would say yes for obvious reasons.
Only if they are from backgrounds that condition them to think contrary to what is perfectly evident by nature - that the fetus is innocent, human, and alive. Furthermore, this ignores the non-Christians who have abortions (whether it was their choice or not) and who, shock of all shocks, feel very badly about it - some even get full-on depression and PTSD.
And that's precisely why we don't even need Scripture as a basis for banning abortion on demand outright. There is enough scientific and moral evidence in the secular realm to make a good pro-life case.
OK, so you were talking about Scriptural "reasons" that abortion might be acceptable, none of which hold water. You then have to look at the Biblical case for the pro-life side - how it tells us that we should defend those who cannot defend themselves (Prov. 31:8), how we are to look after orphans (James 1:27), and on the limitations of taking human life (Gen. 9:6, Prov. 6:16-17). Weighing it Biblically, the pro-life side wins.
Upvote
0
SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
You better be careful or your going to talk yourself into being pro-life
. I believe that the scenario in question is a morally neutral situation. If the woman goes ahead and gives birth, she dies but the baby lives. If the baby is aborted he/she dies but the woman lives. It would be a very emotional decision to say the least and one that could not be made without regrets on both sides.
Again I'm not saying that I would be in favor of the mother living and the child dying or vice versa, I'm just saying the mother should be able to decide whether she would live or die. Between the two lives at stake she alone has the mental capacity and ability to make a moral and lasting decision for her life as well as her child's.
By the way, this is a very RARE scenario.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
See, missed this post again. Don't know how either. Didn't even see it until I looked back. I actually wasn't being sarcastic...I really thought u were evolving for a split second there...sadly, I see that's still not the case. Ohhhhhhhhh.....kkkkkk.... so now u want to jump ship and go from the OP discussion to JUST focusing on talking about abortions.
Again, this really goes back to what constitutes as murder and what constitutes as life. My OFFICIAL position on this is that those terms vary with the person which is what I've been saying all a long. See, consistent to the end. I can't define those terms for 7 billion other people (aka everyone else), just like u can't but that logic still hasn't caught up to u yet. U'll figure it out eventually. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.
Upvote
0
SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
The bible is where I base my belief on the sanctity of unborn life, I'm not sure where you get yours from (Hollywood, Entertainment Weekly, MTV?? don't know). I believe that life begins at conception, not before the sperm and the egg meet, but at the moment of conception (easy enough?).
Most people who are reasonable could figure this out: sex produces new life. Not too hard. After saying that, let me ask you a question that I previously asked in this thread: do you think it would have been morally acceptable for Mary to abort Jesus if she decided against a baby at that specific time?
Scripture reveals that God the Father saw Jesus as a person and as a living being at the moment of the spiritual conception of our Lord. Obviously Jesus existed before His incarnation, but that is not the issue at the moment, the fact remains this verse (see below) is speaking of Jesus before He existed outside the womb as if He was a Person and a Human Life:
"And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Ghost shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
Jesus was considered a human being while in the womb, why should we think otherwise about any other child?
Upvote
0
religious&reasonable
Slayer of Stupid Threads
Abortion is one of the only subjects where I lean heavily conservative, in that it should never be an option to anyone, unless the mother has an extremely high chance of death during birth.
Every human life and individual is precious and has potential to do great things. Every life destroyed through abortion is a missed oppurtunity.
I don't base that on my religous beliefs or the bible, I base that from common sense and an understanding of the potential of all human life.
Every human life and individual is precious and has potential to do great things. Every life destroyed through abortion is a missed oppurtunity.
I don't base that on my religous beliefs or the bible, I base that from common sense and an understanding of the potential of all human life.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Sketcher, I can't help u. Nothing I'm saying is registering. All of ur responses echo the same sentiment no matter what I say and I don't feel like rehashing it bit by bit. How old are u? U seem pretty young. U'r still operating under the illusion that abortion has ONE universal definition which applies to ALL 7 billion people, but it doesn't - not in any way shape or form. U continue to argue moot points without realizing it. There are so many shades of gray here NOTHING u can say or do will turn it into plain black and white universally. That's what u aren't cluing into for some reason. Don't know how to make u see that when it is starring u right in the face yet u remain completely blind to it. Just read this thread, one poster doesn't view abortion as murder bc she only defines murder as unlawful death, some will say life doesn't start at conception so they aren't killing life if they choose to abort within the first few weeks, another feels bc they are male they can't tell a woman what she can or can't do with their bodies regardless of scripture, etc. All u keep doing is posting more scripture, do u not get that u can't define the terms of abortion for 7 billion people (even if u ARE using scripture)?
Upvote
0
You better be careful or your going to talk yourself into being pro-life
I believe that the scenario in question is a morally neutral situation. If the woman goes ahead and gives birth, she dies but the baby lives. If the baby is aborted he/she dies but the woman lives. It would be a very emotional decision to say the least and one that could not be made without regrets on both sides.
Again I'm not saying that I would be in favor of the mother living and the child dying or vice versa, I'm just saying the mother should be able to decide whether she would live or die. Between the two lives at stake she alone has the mental capacity and ability to make a moral and lasting decision for her life as well as her child's.
By the way, this is a very RARE scenario.
But the scenario I described is not rare at all -- there are many people waiting on organ transplants, yet I've never heard anyone suggest they should murder someone else and take their organs (thus saving their own life at the expense of another's). Yet you seem to be saying murder becomes justified if the murderer's life is at stake? Even if not as a good thing, you say it is a neutral thing to murder another to save your own life?
Upvote
0
SoS, I don't know how this keeps getting missed but I personally would not condemn u for ur personal reasons for being pro-life. To each his own is all I'm saying. When it comes to me personally I don't care WHEN the zygote, embryo, fetus, or unborn is considered an actual human being or person. Don't care at all. That doesn't sway my vote one way or the other and I've never made that a point of contention. When it comes to me, I am completely subjected to Jesus Christ and His Father, the Abrahamic God from the Holy Bible, the maker and ruler of heaven and earth. And as I've maintained from the VERY beginning The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away (Job 1:21), so since u believe life starts at the moment of conception, it is ALL fair game to God AND Christ from that point on from my perspective. Get it? Who's being inconsistent now?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
That's why I said u need to study ur Bible more. God and Christ are very much capable of many cruel things (all of which can be found in scripture!!!) from the moment life BEGINS which u just said starts at the point of conception.
So when it comes to ur pro-life stance on abortion, do u not see the inconsistencies and hypocrisy within ur own argument?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Sketcher
Born Imperishable
Sure fooled me when you said this:
I'm just rolling with what you said, I can't presume anything about a stranger across the Internet. You get all kinds of people with crazy beliefs.
When I'm discussing abortion with self-proclaimed atheists, I don't hang the Bible over their heads, because I know they reject it. When I'm talking to self-proclaimed Christians about it, I bring the Bible into play. I'm not sure where you got the impression that I do otherwise.
I'm old enough to work a full time job that pays me for the use of my brain rather than my body. I'm also old enough to know that use of letters instead of proper words makes you look less mature and less intelligent over the Internet. I'm also old enough to examine both sides of an argument, and shoot down the side that I find wanting.
If you're right about that, then you have failed to prove it.
Except you haven't been arguing that at all. You've been trying to argue that God is pro-choice, and you did a very bad job of it. You have not gotten into why you believe abortion is a gray area at all, at least not with me. If you want to get into that, then I can discuss that too.
And all of those are losing arguments. I can get into why, if you wish.
Upvote
0
Sketcher, I can't help u anymore. It all just went over ur head again. Some just can't see the forest through the trees. U might just need to take ur time and read back through everything slowly. I had to do that a couple of times bc the convo was moving fast and some posts got missed but u seem completely clueless no matter what I say.
Upvote
0
SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
It helps in a conversation to actually confront what is being said instead of just saying "your crazy" and not responding.
Upvote
0
B
brightmorningstar
Guest
arj1981,
Firstly:
Secondly:
As to the first criticism above, merely saying that some people think differently is not a good way to move forward. If someone advocated genocide for example would you agree it was a viable viewpoint for the debate merely on the basis that someone thinks it is? Similarly if someone thinks pigs can fly, would you say although you personally don’t think they can it’s a viable viewpoint to be considered as someone thinks it is?
I mean is that a parameter you want? Personally I think it will destroy any meaningful debate. which of course favours the current position
The debate however is whether it is murder, that she thinks not and others think so doesn’t tell us whether it is or not and who is right. Furthermore if one hides behind the law then they had better hope they always agree with the current law.
Firstly:
The question is how can they say life doesn’t start at conception? One cant observe as a sperm becoming a fully grown adult, and one cant observe an egg becoming a fully grown adult, but one can observe as a sperm and egg uniting and fertilizing, and becoming a fully grown adult.
Secondly:
The male has conceived the life with the woman, so both knew what the consequences were for the woman’s body.
But scripture isn’t the only benchmark to demonstrate the unreality of the claims.
As to the first criticism above, merely saying that some people think differently is not a good way to move forward. If someone advocated genocide for example would you agree it was a viable viewpoint for the debate merely on the basis that someone thinks it is? Similarly if someone thinks pigs can fly, would you say although you personally don’t think they can it’s a viable viewpoint to be considered as someone thinks it is?
I mean is that a parameter you want? Personally I think it will destroy any meaningful debate. which of course favours the current position
Upvote
0
actually, that didn't help. I've been responding to him this entire time and it literally went nowhere in 3 pages. I don't know how many times I have to keep readdressing the same moot point he continues to harp on without rhyme or reason.
Upvote
0
B
brightmorningstar
Guest
arj1981,
Ah, we could debate that.
It helped me, so how can you say it didn’t help just because it didn’t help you?
that was my point to you, your view allows all opinions whether reason or not.
Ok but the other may not condemn you for your personal reasons for being pro-choice, so who cares.
Are you? I don’t think so.
So do you care about genocide in the world or do you say each to his own?
So I assume you are happy that people who commit genocide are also completely submitted to to Jesus Christ and His Father, the Abrahamic God from the Holy Bible, providing they claim it, bc you said ‘each to his own’ and ‘God and Christ are very much capable of many cruel things ‘
Ah, we could debate that.
You. The Lord taketh away is not the same as humans taking away. A view that life starts at the point of puberty is a view, but as explained the reality is life has to start at conception.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
