abortion?

[SoldierOfSoul]

I don't want to post any links bc they might be considered too graphic but google "Strip-searched at McDonald's" and u will find the tale of a young girl who was raped and molested on the job bc of some prank caller. That's some sick stuff. I won't go through all of the Elizabeth Smarts' that are out there but here is another true story that was featured on the show I Survived... I couldn't find any clips but here is her face.

This rape victim had been molested for most of her young life when a family friend (the one who had been molesting her) abducted her at 13 and held her captive inside a hotel room while he sexually abused her and prostituted her out for a period 104 days to random men who were old enough to be her father. Now, if she wound up pregnant but the mother, father and 13 yr old child reached a consensus that she should abort the unborn baby are u telling me this is a proper response and u could say this to her face:

Talk about being victimized twice. That's crazy talk. If u respond that u could say this to a 13 yr old and her family after an ordeal like that, something's wrong with u, NOT them. Where is the compassion and the Christ-like example we are suppose to set before others? It would very hateful and selfish of u to react in this manner and God would not be pleased no matter what justification u try to conjure up for such ignorance.

I am only in favor of abortion when the pregnancy could pose a health risk (death especially) for the mother. In this case with the girl being 13 years old, the health risk would be tremendous to this child and the moral thing to do in this situation would be to end the pregnancy.

But in most cases abortion is not an option and it is murder, Arj I know you don't agree because of the western, secular ideology that you have been exposed to, you know longer think of a fetus in the womb (even that of a rape victim) as being a small HUMAN BEING but more or less as nothing but a side affect of an event.

Rape is a horrible thing, I'm not arguing against that, I truly feel for all who have gone through it, but someone must (HAS) to take the side of the child.

 

[suzybeezy]

MOD HAT ON

Thread moved per CF Rule:

● Abortion may only be discussed in the Ethics & Morality forum, the Christian Philosophy and Ethics forum, and the Congregation and Recovery categories.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[arj1981]

Maremma, I am glad that wasn't directed at me bc I really didn't get it.

OK then.

What is unfounded about God's being all-knowing, or God's active hand in a covenant relationship with his people? Psalm 139, and even Numbers 5:27-28 are good counterexamples to this assertion. Furthermore, while God allows people to do bad things to each other, and while God takes life and rightfully so (Job 1:21), this isn't an argument for God performing abortions in this instance, let alone that people can rightfully do so.


In the footnotes, huh? You can go either way with those footnotes, which is why they're not in the body text. And me, I'm a Sola Scriptura believer. While it is not outlandish to assume a woman could have been pregnant while taking this test, there is no Biblical evidence of a pregnant woman taking this test, so you can't say for certain that God was killing pregnancies in this case.

No, not with Numbers 5, but I can say it in theses cases (plural):

Hosea 9: 14 Give them, LORD—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.

Hosea 13:16
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”

While one could reasonably assume so, that is really just an assumption and not truth reported in the Bible (incorrect). There are other clues of course that a woman has been cheating, and in a tight-knit community, one can reasonably suggest that rumors would be flying before the first baby bump. This test is as much to clear the name of an accused woman as it is to disgrace a guilty one.

This is part of why you can't connect the Numbers 5 law to abortions today. That was a law of jealousy, only given to Jews, and it's not a law that permits abortion by man. (Hosea 13:16 isn't a law per se but it shows God permitting/ordering man to perform abortions on women) In fact, I can't think of a single law either to Jews or to the whole world that does, though there are some interpretations that allow for it only in a medical emergency. (Nope, I don't believe that's anywhere in scripture either)

I don't know if u read anything past this post, but Chris wasn't mentioning the Numbers 5 passage simply bc it was a "test". Like Mearmma, u seem to be hung up on that factor for whatever reason, but from my perspective it is a moot point. This isn't a question of faith. Pro lifers make it a point to argue that God, the Bible and Christ say abortion is WRONG, demonic and sinful. Others in this thread have used those exact same words. The main point I was making is that like Hosea 9:14 & Hosea 13:16, Numbers 5 represents another incident in scripture in which God gave orders to man to terminate existing pregnancies or a fetus was being aborted by God or the threat to abort a fetus was made by God. So rambling on and on about how God and Christ are ONLY pro-life and every woman will face eternal damnation if they choose to abort is incorrect. I can't speak for others but that's the only point I was making.

You'd have to say that God commissions rape, murder, kidnapping, abuse, and all kinds of other war crimes, in all instances for this to fly, and I don't believe that for a second. Just because he allows something, doesn't mean he commissions it.

U don't know ur Bible very well.

Hey, I'm not the one trying to tie Numbers 5 to abortion (since a miscarriage, unless forced by man, is not an abortion) nor am I asserting that this happened to pregnant women when there is no Biblical evidence that it did for sure, so I don't think I'm the one twisting Scripture here.

Yea u are. U are compartmentalizing what's taking place here. That's y u aren't connecting the dots. If there are instances in scripture of God and Christ ordained infanticides and threats made by God to abort fetuses and God commanding man to kill children and split open pregnant women then He's not all that pro-life to begin with, so people should STOP using the Bible as their ONLY excuse for disagreeing with abortion. That's my point. Let people be without ridiculing them, harassing them with out-of-context scriptures, giving them guilt trips that will be with them for the rest of their life, and telling them it is demonic when, one, they might not even be Christians, two, God isn't pro-life, and three, there might be a medical emergency in which this procedure is necessary. That's the point I'm trying to stress to u but nothing's getting across. People keep making abortion a biblical issue when that is not necessarily always the case. It is a womanly issue first and foremost. That will ALWAYS be the case.

I am only in favor of abortion when the pregnancy could pose a health risk (death especially) for the mother. In this case with the girl being 13 years old, the health risk would be tremendous to this child and the moral thing to do in this situation would be to end the pregnancy.

But in most cases abortion is not an option and it is murder, Arj I know you don't agree because of the western, secular ideology that you have been exposed to, you know longer think of a fetus in the womb (even that of a rape victim) as being a small HUMAN BEING but more or less as nothing but a side affect of an event. (I never said anything like this, so u cant tell me how I view life PERIOD. Don't put words in my mouth)

Rape is a horrible thing, I'm not arguing against that, I truly feel for all who have gone through it, but someone must (HAS) to take the side of the child.

SOS, I am glad u changed ur opinion from earlier. I think it is only acceptable in certain situations too. I can't say I would have a blanket acceptance of abortion either. I'll admit that, but I honestly haven't put a lot of thought into it either way.

 

[Sketcher]

No, not with Numbers 5, but I can say it in theses cases (plural):

Hosea 9: 14 Give them, LORD—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.

Hosea 13:16
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”

I don't know if u read anything past this post, but Chris wasn't mentioning the Numbers 5 passage simply bc it was a "test". Like Mearmma, u seem to be hung up on that factor for whatever reason, but from my perspective it is a moot point. This isn't a question of faith. Pro lifers make it a point to argue that God, the Bible and Christ say abortion is WRONG, demonic and sinful. Others in this thread have used those exact same words. The main point I was making is that like Hosea 9:14 & Hosea 13:16, Numbers 5 represents another incident in scripture in which God gave orders to man to terminate existing pregnancies or a fetus was being aborted by God or the threat to abort a fetus was made by God. So rambling on and on about how God and Christ are ONLY pro-life and every woman will face eternal damnation if they choose to abort is incorrect. I can't speak for others but that's the only point I was making.

Yea u are. U are compartmentalizing what's taking place here. That's y u aren't connecting the dots. If there are instances in scripture of God and Christ ordained infanticides and threats made by God to abort fetuses and God commanding man to kill children and split open pregnant women then He's not all that pro-life to begin with, so people should STOP using the Bible as their ONLY excuse for disagreeing with abortion. That's my point.

Not only are the Hosea passages not law, but they're not an acceptable pattern for behavior outside of God-ordained special cases, which happen to be recorded in Scripture. You're ripping this out of context by using it as part of your justification for God being pro-choice. Surely you don't think that our troops should be doing this to people in Afghanistan, or that Israeli troops should be doing this to the Palestinians (which people could come up with if they connected the right dots, while ignoring context). If they cannot rightly do so, then you have to be consistent and say that this can't be used for a justification for abortion today either.

Furthermore, what you're missing is that God has the right to take life, and to order that it be taken. Human beings generally don't. In the case of abortion, Psalm 139 tells us that God forms people in the womb. If God is forming a person, who is another person to say that should end, and put a stop to it? Most people wouldn't think of smashing a pot that a potter still has on the wheel, let alone put a plan for killing a grown person they could do without into action. But abortion is both of those put into one ugly package. It destroys what God is creating, and what it destroys is a human life.

Finally, the Bible is not my "ONLY excuse for disagreeing with abortion." First, I don't have excuses, I have reasons. Second, you don't even need what's exclusively in the Bible to disagree with abortion - I've talked to pro-life unbelievers before. If people like them can get it, it saddens me all the more that self-proclaimed Christians do not.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

SOS, I am glad u changed ur opinion from earlier. I think it is only acceptable in certain situations too. I can't say I would have a blanket acceptance of abortion either. I'll admit that, but I honestly haven't put a lot of thought into it either way.

I did not change my mind, I have, for a long time, understood the need of abortion in certain extreme cases. When the life of the mother is in danger, the decision should be left up to the woman whether the child is born or aborted. But if we are speaking of a pregnancy that does not pose a threat to the womans life, even in the back drop of a rape, I would have to side with the child over the woman's rights, the child (biblically speaking) has as much rights as a living being as does the woman. So in cases where a forced pregnancy has happened unless a reasonable threat to the woman's life is caused by the carrying and birth of the child, the birth should not be terminated.

 

[chris4243]

While it is not outlandish to assume a woman could have been pregnant while taking this test, there is no Biblical evidence of a pregnant woman taking this test, so you can't say for certain that God was killing pregnancies in this case.

The biblical evidence is consistent with pregnant women taking the Numbers 5 test 10 times more often than non-pregnant women. (not saying that is the case, just that it is consistent with the biblical evidence)

Oh, and a damaged womb won't prevent conception, so if it prevents birth it can do it only via miscarriage.

 

[chris4243]

I am only in favor of abortion when the pregnancy could pose a health risk (death especially) for the mother. ...

But in most cases abortion is not an option and it is murder,

So murder is sometimes justified if it is for health reasons? If I need a kidney and will die without one, am I justified murdering someone for theirs? You want to call it murder, you better go the whole way or you're just being inconsistent.

 

[Sketcher]

The biblical evidence is consistent with pregnant women taking the Numbers 5 test 10 times more often than non-pregnant women. (not saying that is the case, just that it is consistent with the biblical evidence)

Where are you getting that information from? There are no Biblical statistics on who took that test, to be sure.

Oh, and a damaged womb won't prevent conception, so if it prevents birth it can do it only via miscarriage.

Perhaps, but you can't link what God does to somebody's womb to what human beings are allowed to do - He's God, we're not. He has the right to do things that we don't.

 

[chris4243]

In the case of abortion, Psalm 139 tells us that God forms people in the womb. If God is forming a person, who is another person to say that should end, and put a stop to it?

Oh, another person who refuses to eat plants. How dare you kill something that God forms?
1 Corinthians 3:7
So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

Psalm 104:14
He makes grass grow ...

 

[Sketcher]

Oh, another person who refuses to eat plants. How dare you kill something that God forms?

God gave us plants and animals for human consumption, he didn't give us the right to terminate human life, either in or out of the womb willy-nilly.

 

[chris4243]

God gave us plants and animals for human consumption, he didn't give us the right to terminate human life, either in or out of the womb willy-nilly.

So you don't have a problem with killing and eating something God has formed?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

So murder is sometimes justified if it is for health reasons? If I need a kidney and will die without one, am I justified murdering someone for theirs? You want to call it murder, you better go the whole way or you're just being inconsistent.

I am antiabortion and verymuch prolife.

I only make the exception that if the life of the mother is in danger because of the pregnancy it should be an option left up to the husband and wife whether to continue with the pregnancy or not. If you do not agree with this, you are condemning the woman to death, an extreme position to say the least.

 

[arj1981]

Not only are the Hosea passages not law, but they're not an acceptable pattern for behavior outside of God-ordained special cases, which happen to be recorded in Scripture. You're ripping this out of context by using it as part of your justification for God being pro-choice. Surely you don't think that our troops should be doing this to people in Afghanistan, or that Israeli troops should be doing this to the Palestinians (which people could come up with if they connected the right dots, while ignoring context). If they cannot rightly do so, then you have to be consistent and say that this can't be used for a justification for abortion today either.

Sketcher, u don't know me very well. My message is always consistent. I am fully aware of what God's wrath is capable of and I don't judge it one way or the other. Not only are the Hosea passages not law, but they're not an acceptable pattern for behavior outside of God-ordained special cases... Again, the issue of abortion is NOT primarily a Christian one, but a woman one. U aren't taking that into consideration. U keep negating this fact. Atheists can have abortions without guilt or hesitation bc they believe there is no GOD telling them what they can or can't do with their bodies. Therefore, u can't justify it or ban it for every single individual faced with this choice simply bc of what is or is not found in scripture. Some (take doctors for instance) choose to be pro life or pro choice purely based off of scientific data - like when it comes to their individual perception of when life starts in the womb... at the moment of conception or weeks later... Someone said this earlier but NO Christian has a monopoly on what constitutes as life and murder when it comes to defining the terms of abortion. That's not getting through to u no matter how many times it's been repeated. Some might choose their position based on life experiences or cultural influences, etc. Not everyone bases their reasoning off the same logic. Not everyone needs A LAW to begin with. Not everyone needs the Bible to say Commandment 11: Thou shalt not abort or it is permissible for thou to abort in order for them to decide for themselves. So, how would u justify ur position in situations like this? U can't PERIOD unless u convert them first, but that's not what we are saying, are we?

U could call it demonic...but they are atheists. So say they'll be damned...they could respond Christ will forgive me no matter what... Meramma's point in an earlier post is that if u reside by The Law then u are cursed by the Law. If u reside under grace then u are forgiven... some can (and do) interpret this as I am a Christian, therefore, Christ will forgive me for ALL of my transgressions no matter how big or how small. So, how can scripture fully prohibit abortion in any way, shape or form when to a degree it all boils down to interpretation? U are acting like there is one universal modus operandi at play here and the entire world is of one accord. This isn't the case. It is very unrealistic and it is a very shallow way to broach the topic of abortion altogether.

Furthermore, what you're missing is that God has the right to take life, and to order that it be taken. Human beings generally don't. (No, u keep missing my point. See above response.) In the case of abortion, Psalm 139 tells us that God forms people in the womb. If God is forming a person, who is another person to say that should end, and put a stop to it? Most people wouldn't think of smashing a pot that a potter still has on the wheel, let alone put a plan for killing a grown person they could do without into action. But abortion is both of those put into one ugly package. It destroys what God is creating, and what it destroys is a human life. (See above response.)

Finally, the Bible is not my "ONLY excuse for disagreeing with abortion." First, I don't have excuses, I have reasons. Second, you don't even need what's exclusively in the Bible to disagree with abortion - I've talked to pro-life unbelievers before. If people like them can get it, it saddens me all the more that self-proclaimed Christians do not. (See above response.)

I did not change my mind, I have, for a long time, understood the need of abortion in certain extreme cases. When the life of the mother is in danger, the decision should be left up to the woman whether the child is born or aborted. But if we are speaking of a pregnancy that does not pose a threat to the womans life, even in the back drop of a rape, I would have to side with the child over the woman's rights, the child (biblically speaking) has as much rights as a living being as does the woman. So in cases where a forced pregnancy has happened unless a reasonable threat to the woman's life is caused by the carrying and birth of the child, the birth should not be terminated.

SOS, u know why I said that? In all circumstances, RAPE IS an extreme case and this was ur initial response. The poster u were chastising was explaining that it depends on the age of the woman and whatnot and if she found herself pregnant after being raped she might not be able to handle it. It IS NOT YOUR!!! place to tell her what she can and can't cope with after such a traumatic experience. If u don't see how ignorant this is then u need to learn a few things from Incariol. Even u said: In this case with the girl being 13 years old, the health risk would be tremendous to this child (incorrect. being a man, u don't know enough about pregnancy. There normally aren't many health risks involved with having kids at that age. there are far too many cases of girls having babies at 13. Case and point, Whoopi's daughter got pregnant at that age) and the moral thing to do in this situation would be to end the pregnancy. But u did add this would be the MORAL thing to do, so even by ur own admission death and health risks are NOT the only excusable reasons for abortions.

Boy, I'm glad our law markers aren't as naive as the two of u. A few years from now, after u've gained a little more life experience, I'm sure you'll both look back and want to kick urselfs for this display of mediocrity (sorry, I tried but I can't come up with another word. All the same, this is an interesting debate. I've never participated in something like this. Never heard so much nonsense in all my life).

 

[lux et lex]

So murder is sometimes justified if it is for health reasons? If I need a kidney and will die without one, am I justified murdering someone for theirs? You want to call it murder, you better go the whole way or you're just being inconsistent.

Well, first off abortion isn't murder. Murder, as defined by Black's Law Dictionary, is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought. Abortion is very much legal, therefore negating the rest of the definition, and therefore not murder. Secondly, if you need a kidney, you cannot murder someone else for it and take it, but of course you know that. Abortion is different. The embryo or fetus is wholly dependent on just the woman, and is not transferable. If it is endangering the woman's life, and is before the point where it can survive outside the womb without heroic measures, abortion is a reasonable recourse. If it's after the point where the fetus could survive outside the womb without heroic measures, and induced birth should take place, and I think most, if not all, pro choice people agree with that.

On the topic of rape conceptions, I believe the woman should do what she sees fit. Severe emotional distress is a legitimate health condition that could endanger the woman and do more harm to her than had she terminated the pregnancy. I'm all for adoption or if the woman can, keeping the pregnancy and the resulting baby. However, there have been some cases where the rapist has sued for custody or visitation rights...which is something our criminal justice system needs to fix.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

It IS NOT YOUR!!! place to tell her what she can and can't cope with after such a traumatic experience.

And it's not your place to judge whether the child will live or die either.

 

[arj1981]

And it's not your place to judge whether the child will live or die either.

SOS, some of ur comments were:

So YOU would murder a unborn child (YOUR child) because it would change YOUR life and YOU don't feel like "YOU could love IT". See how selfish and hateful this is? I would have to side with the child over the woman's rights, the child (biblically speaking) has as much rights as a living being as does the woman. I am antiabortion and very much prolife.

So what u wrote above is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get thru to u this entire time. I'm consistent to the very end. It isn't MY place to judge (quote me on that...thought I've been saying it this entire time in fact) anymore than it is YOUR place to judge. Get it? Now ur learning! Bravo !!! The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. And since neither of us can judge His decision, I say sit back and let God do His job.

 

[arj1981]

Well, first off abortion isn't murder. Murder, as defined by Black's Law Dictionary, is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought. Abortion is very much legal, therefore negating the rest of the definition, and therefore not murder. Secondly, if you need a kidney, you cannot murder someone else for it and take it, but of course you know that. Abortion is different. The embryo or fetus is wholly dependent on just the woman, and is not transferable. If it is endangering the woman's life, and is before the point where it can survive outside the womb without heroic measures, abortion is a reasonable recourse. If it's after the point where the fetus could survive outside the womb without heroic measures, and induced birth should take place, and I think most, if not all, pro choice people agree with that.

On the topic of rape conceptions, I believe the woman should do what she sees fit. Severe emotional distress is a legitimate health condition that could endanger the woman and do more harm to her than had she terminated the pregnancy. I'm all for adoption or if the woman can, keeping the pregnancy and the resulting baby. However, there have been some cases where the rapist has sued for custody or visitation rights...which is something our criminal justice system needs to fix.

LOL. Like ur sig. I must be a pro choice Christian too then. I learn something new about myself every day. U make several good points in ur posts. I think Chris was trying to emphasis a point in that post though. He wasn't calling abortion murder.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

SOS, some of ur comments were:

So what u wrote above is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get thru to u this entire time. I'm consistent to the very end. It isn't MY place to judge (quote me on that...thought I've been saying it this entire time in fact) anymore than it is YOUR place to judge. Get it? Now ur learning! Bravo !!! The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. And since neither of ubs can judge His decision, I say sit back and let God do His job.

Sarcasm is not one of your strong points. I'm not going to sit here and have YOU tell ME what I believe. I'm trying to have a serious discussion here and I feel like I'm talking to a six year old, please grow up.

This is getting way off point, rape is not the issue here, neither the mentality of a pregnant woman. The issue is that children are being killed in the womb. These extreme cases that we have been talking about are exactly that: Extreme! They are not the norm, the normative abortive procedure is used as a form of birth control. Most abortions are of this sort and do not carry the debatable moral conundrums of said cases. The majority of abortion cases are (according to the bible) morally repugnant and under the BIBLICAL definition: MURDER and EVIL.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

I'm consistent to the very end.

Are you really? hmm.

You:

However, I don't support abortion

You again:

LOL. Like ur sig. I must be a pro choice Christian too then. I learn something new about myself every day.

Indeed.

 

[chris4243]

I am antiabortion and verymuch prolife.

I only make the exception that if the life of the mother is in danger because of the pregnancy it should be an option left up to the husband and wife whether to continue with the pregnancy or not. If you do not agree with this, you are condemning the woman to death, an extreme position to say the least.

I don't think it's very extreme to say that murder is not justified even if it is to save your life. Again, with someone who needs an organ donation they are not justified in killing someone else, are they?