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Aibrean

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No, it's not all right. Even if you don't want to raise a child out of rape. You don't have to. You can give the child up for adoption. The child can have a life and you don't need to be involved. At least give it the chance to live.

Think of how many things could have been invented and how many sicknesses could have been cured if the millions of aborted babies could have been given an opportunity to live.
 
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Onmywalk

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yeah but.. everytime you look at the child you remember what happend to you... you bear a child from a man who did something terrible to you :/

Should God feel the same way about us? For we all sin and do terrible things...be it to Him or His children. Yet He shows grace and He sent His only son to suffer and die for our sins.

Those who cannot show grace to those who cannot defend themselves deserve none.
 
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Onmywalk

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But abortion is not murder.

I guess you didn't read the last part of my statement you quoted. "Murder is murder no matter the word play." You can call taking a life anything you want but in the end those involved in such acts can take it up with Jesus Christ.
 
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arj1981

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So YOU would murder a unborn child (YOUR child) because it would change YOUR life and YOU don't feel like "YOU could love IT".

See how selfish and hateful this is?

Where does the child get a choice in this? Does he/she have a say in whether it lives?

Abortion should not be an option. Just because it is, does not make it right, it is a evil, malignant, demonic, selfish act that God will judge. Beware.

That's the point. The child doesn't get a say in this, just like the woman didn't. God didn't ask the child for an opinion when it came to Numbers 5. I don't necessarily agree but, SOS, u are wagging ur finger at her and chastising her without realizing the gravity of the situation. Typically, rape is a very violent sport which leads to this outcome: outcome No random man could chastise me about ANYTHING I decide to do with my body after an experience like that. And those aren't dramatized for TV, that's what rape victims look like in RL after they've been attacked. I remember hearing this one true story of a teacher that was minding her own business in her own home when a burglar busted into her home stole her cash and abducted her. He took her out in the middle of a field and raped her. Then, while at a distance, he shot her several times, yet she managed to live. While this lady is on the ground, raped and beaten with several bullets in her already, this guy coolly walks up to and stands over her and puts the gun to her head and shoots her at point blank range. Suspecting she's dead, he FINALLY drives off. Only, she wasn't dead. She survived and ended up getting the guy sent to prison. Now, she didn't end up pregnant during this ordeal but she was saying how it was very hard to forgive him for this and I don't blame her. The teacher and the burglar were two different races. I'm not going to reveal their nationalities, but who's to say she wanted an interracial baby in the first place? Even if I was to give it up for adoption 9 months later, no way could someone shame me into carrying a seed like that after such a traumatic experience. People have lost their minds if they think they can tell a woman what she should or shouldn't be doing with her body in situations like this.

I don't know what Maremma's point was about curses, bc from my perspective she's arguing a moot point. I can't speak for everyone else but I'll clarify my position and the only reason I've joined this discussion. Everyone (not just in this thread but literally everywhere u go) keeps saying abortions are ungodly and unchristianly (don't know if that's a word) when the scriptural evidence shows the exact opposite. Neither God or Christ are the hardcore, fanatical pro lifers that Christians like to portray them as. That's why I posted these links and passages:

Judges 11:30-40, and I came across this link.

Hosea 9: 14 Give them, LORD—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.


Hosea 13:16
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”


Christ's words: Rev. 2: 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Listen, if Christ (like God) conducts infanticides then u know abortions/miscarrying of the womb aren't off limits for Him. So I wish people would stop saying God, Christ and the Bible say abortion is wrong when that's not entirely accurate. If u have another reason for disagreeing with abortion, then ok. Share. I'm not really for it or against it. I'm just saying that first reason is regurgitated gibberish that's being spouted by people who don't know their bibles that well. People should stop being blind followers and study their Bibles more.

To me, it seems like people are in denial if they don't want to accept the fact that the above is what's written in plain black, white and red in the Good Book. And they assume those verses will magically disappear or change themselves simply bc they try to argue down their opponents with baseless :nono: rhetoric. So they chastise reasonable responders who say stuff like it might be mentally, emotionally and spiritually damaging and scarring to carry a child 9 months after such an offense (which is very reasonable btw) or I'm a man and I can't tell a woman what to do with her body (another very, very reasonable response and it is coming from a 21 year old male. that's very wise).

I don't want to play the victim card, but I'm sure I'm not the only woman on this board that's been in similar circumstances as the one expressed in this OP. The ordeal is something u can't mentally prepare for. I became a raging alcoholic for a short time afterward and I had no one to talk to bc it is just a shameful experience u do not want to relive and carrying a child every single day for 9 months after that would've made it even harder to cope. There would probably be nothing left of my sanity by the time it was time to deliver so I don't see how anyone can stand in judgment of another (especially a man) and tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing with their bodies. It is highly illogical IMHO.
 
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chris4243

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I guess you didn't read the last part of my statement you quoted. "Murder is murder no matter the word play." You can call taking a life anything you want but in the end those involved in such acts can take it up with Jesus Christ.

You must be one of those people who eats only synthetic food, since they don't want to murder a plant or anything. Me, I don't mind killing lots of different things but do mind if the living thing in question is a person or at least person-like. Just because you call killing a plant murder, doesn't make it so no matter your word play. I only call murder the unlawful (either legally or morally) killing of a person. And it is obvious to everyone that personhood does not start at conception.
 
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Onmywalk

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You must be one of those people who eats only synthetic food, since they don't want to murder a plant or anything. Me, I don't mind killing lots of different things but do mind if the living thing in question is a person or at least person-like. Just because you call killing a plant murder, doesn't make it so no matter your word play. I only call murder the unlawful (either legally or morally) killing of a person. And it is obvious to everyone that personhood does not start at conception.

Chris, You really shouldn't try to speak about someone you don't know as "one of those people". You just remove all doubt of what type of person you are.

The topic of discussion involves abortion, which (regardless of how some people try to dehumanize the those living within their mothers) is the murder of babies. No one is talking about fruits or nuts although there seems to be many here on CF. When God commands us not to murder I believe He was talking about the murder of fellow human beings...not carrots, trees, and livestock or wild game.

You (or anyone) can claim to know when life begins but I believe that is God's call. You are not God so your opinion doesn't matter. You can dehumanize babies like the nazis did to the jews, like many colonial powers did to the native people throughout the world, but that doesn't make it right. Humans are wicked and they will continue to be so until they turn away from their sin and turn toward Jesus Christ.

I tried to be kind. Forgive me if I fell short...again.
 
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chris4243

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Chris, You really shouldn't try to speak about someone you don't know as "one of those people". You just remove all doubt of what type of person you are.

The topic of discussion involves abortion, which (regardless of how some people try to dehumanize the those living within their mothers) is the murder of babies. No one is talking about fruits or nuts although there seems to be many here on CF. When God commands us not to murder I believe He was talking about the murder of fellow human beings...not carrots, trees, and livestock or wild game.

You (or anyone) can claim to know when life begins but I believe that is God's call. You are not God so your opinion doesn't matter. You can dehumanize babies like the nazis did to the jews, like many colonial powers did to the native people throughout the world, but that doesn't make it right. Humans are wicked and they will continue to be so until they turn away from their sin and turn toward Jesus Christ.

I tried to be kind. Forgive me if I fell short...again.

Just trying to get the point across... you don't have a monopoly on defining the word murder, and you get really offended when people define it more inclusively than you think it should be. Also, earlier you said "life" but I think we can all agree that murder is about "people" not just "life". But back to getting the point across...

Now, you claim to know when life begins, but I believe that is God's call. You are not God so your opinion doesn't matter. You can dehumanize plants like the nazis did to the jews, like many colonial powers did to the native people throughout the world, but that doesn't make it right. Humans are wicked and they will continue to be so until they turn away from their sin and turn toward Jesus Christ.
 
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Onmywalk

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"The Lord knows those who are his."
and
"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
-2 Timothy 2:19


Let Jesus Christ be the judge.


"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly."
-2 Timothy 2:16

Grace be with you all.

offended? Not in the slightest. Best wishes to you.
 
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arj1981

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I understand this position about thou shalt not murder. However, when it came to pillaging and plundering villages (which housed men, women and children) and warring against corrupt nations and the Israelites being enslaved for 400 years... man acted out God's wishes. Therefore, I'm wondering if u can figure out what this implies...

Judges 11:30-40, and I came across this link.

Hosea 9: 14 Give them, LORD—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.


Hosea 13:16
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”


Christ's words: Rev. 2: 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Not all of these events took place supernaturally. Nowhere is that written. In some cases, God commanded man and man obeyed orders. A lot of those examples are mentioned in this link.
 
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katautumn

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yeah but.. everytime you look at the child you remember what happend to you... you bear a child from a man who did something terrible to you :/

Not necessarily. I have a family member who was the product of rape and was adopted by another family member. He grew up in a very loving home, despite the tragic circumstances leading up to his conception.
 
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arj1981

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I don't want to post any links bc they might be considered too graphic but google "Strip-searched at McDonald's" and u will find the tale of a young girl who was raped and molested on the job bc of some prank caller. That's some sick stuff. I won't go through all of the Elizabeth Smarts' that are out there but here is another true story that was featured on the show I Survived... I couldn't find any clips but here is her face.

index.jpg


This rape victim had been molested for most of her young life when a family friend (the one who had been molesting her) abducted her at 13 and held her captive inside a hotel room while he sexually abused her and prostituted her out for a period 104 days to random men who were old enough to be her father. Now, if she wound up pregnant but the mother, father and 13 yr old child reached a consensus that she should abort the unborn baby are u telling me this is a proper response and u could say this to her face:

Originally Posted by SoldierOfSoul
So YOU would murder a unborn child (YOUR child) because it would change YOUR life and YOU don't feel like "YOU could love IT".

See how selfish and hateful this is?


Where does the child get a choice in this? Does he/she have a say in whether it lives?

Abortion should not be an option. Just because it is, does not make it right, it is a evil, malignant, demonic, selfish act that God will judge. Beware.
Talk about being victimized twice. That's crazy talk. If u respond that u could say this to a 13 yr old and her family after an ordeal like that, something's wrong with u, NOT them. Where is the compassion and the Christ-like example we are suppose to set before others? It would very hateful and selfish of u to react in this manner and God would not be pleased no matter what justification u try to conjure up for such ignorance.
 
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arj1981

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He gives life and He never gives it by accident.
Well, that's my point. He never takes it away by accident either. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. God commissions everything under the sun.

Job 1:21

21 and said:
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[a]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised.”

If God didn't spare Christ, I don't see how anybody else could be safe. That logic just seems backwards IMHO.
 
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arj1981

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This rape victim had been molested for most of her young life when a family friend (the one who had been molesting her) abducted her at 13 and held her captive inside a hotel room while he sexually abused her and prostituted her out for a period 104 days to random men who were old enough to be her father.
To avoid confusion, I would like to clarify this statement. I've noticed that a lot of the details I mentioned above are left out of the article (probably to keep it short...here is the youtube video from that interview which appears to be a segment on a piece about kidnapped victims). In the I Survived... episode, however, she goes into greater detail and explains that her captor ran out of money, so he prostituted her out in order to pay the bills. If someone else has seen this episode, they can confirm this for me. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing. Ppl should read the comments from that article.

For some, such as Jessyca, the scars of rape don't mend overnight or even after a lifetime. They remain with people forever and a day in most cases. This isn't something that just "goes away" on its own (most need several years of counseling afterward), or a month later it is never thought of again and life returns to normal as if nothing's ever happened. It doesn't work like that. This isn't even something that just affects a SINGLE person either. It is also equally hard (if not more so) on their loved ones (ie husband, father, mother, boyfriend). Case and point.

Therefore, if anyone is this shallow about rape and can simply gloss over all of these factors without blinking an eye whenever they shell out purely speculative, unfounded judgments about abortions then they don't deserve an opinion on this matter PERIOD. It is easy to become self-righteous and snooty when viewing rape, abortion, the Bible, God and Christ in the abstract.

That's the only way anyone can ever fix their mouth to spout such ignorant crap like Abortion should NOT be an option, the baby has a right to live NO matter what, NO Christian should say abortion is acceptable for ANY reason, abortion has NO place in a Christian. People are tone deaf for real. All of those declarations also prohibit abortions in ALL cases of medical emergencies, yet they fail to realize how ignorant that sounds (mostly bc they aren't that well-versed in scripture, I presume). I want to use another word that starts with an r but I don't want to take it there. But, Geesh!!! it is hard to bite ur tongue sometimes. I'll just say it seems like others are operating on a pure lack of common sense, but some say common sense is not that common, so I digress.

I vaguely recall that a similar story made headlines a couple of years ago (it was reported on the View) when a doctor decided to terminate a pregnancy in order to save a mother of three. And her three children were very young, so should they automatically be robbed of a mother and raised as orphans? Or should a newly wedded husband be forced to lose his wife without a second option? Should other family members be burdened with an additional set of four, when they already have families of their own? What if this mother doesn't have any other family at all, should those four just go to the state then? What if it was genetic (which some miscarriages and conditions are), and it happened in the family more than once? It would just be a clan of cousins before u know it. No mom around. She's dead.

Talk about dehumanizing/devaluing human life. The double standards are ridiculous. It would be ironic if any of these self-righteous folks found themselves in these predicaments years later. I wonder how they'd respond then :confused:.

Instead of viewing these concepts (rape, abortion, the Bible, etc) in the abstract, people should apply concrete reality to all of those circumstances, then they might change their opinion on things altogether. Put a face to it, a name to it, an age to it (one of the commentators reported being raped at 7...and I even recall a story of a man going to jail for sexually assaulting his 3 month old <<< BANANAS CRAZY!!!!!!). Don't simply pick and choose verses that suit u or reword scripture to meet ur needs. I personally feel this situation can easily remedy itself if people stopped over romanticizing God and Christ and took the Word of God as is NOT 'well, what I want it to say is...'
 
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Maremma

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Arj I was not directing my post to you.

No one called GOD a rapist. Posters have used the justification of abortion if the father of that baby were a rapist. The human man that committed this sin, not God. Not that that very minute number of abortions preformed in the US alone even begins to touch on the magnitude of the overall problem.

It was not you that referred to the cursed drink an abortive drink, that was a different poster. Indeed the scriptures in Numbers is not about abortion, it is about infidelity and winding up cursed for life if you indeed were an unfaithful wife.

Curse- negative, bad, not of God, punishment for sin, huge negative spiritual consequences that have only been slightly touched on in this string.

Again in the bible it was ALWAYS punishment for sin that people lost their babies or were unable to have them in the first place. Never was it a reward for obedience, a &#8220;way out of trouble&#8221;, a blessing from God.

We cannot lose sight of that fact when we are discussing abortion. In the Old Testament to abort spontaneously or otherwise was ALWAYS a curse allowed by God. I would have guessed that you should have a better understanding of the depth of significance in that but maybe you don&#8217;t. I don&#8217;t know.

Again I will say, God never said it was going to be easy to walk our walk with Him. God never said we can pick and choose what we will and won&#8217;t forgive. God just promised to give is the grace and power to do it if we will accept it.

I can speak about forgiving and allowing the Lord to heal us directly from experience. I was raised in an alcoholic abusive home. Both parents were heavy drinkers, abusive, neglectful, involved in the occult, allowed us to be abused by others they brought into our home as well. We were abused mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually and sexually. It was definitely not a healthy way to be raised to put it mildly. I was violently raped and beaten and told by my mother I deserved it and to stop whining. There was NO mercy in that house for any of us. No security, no love, we feared for our very lives and with just cause.

[FONT=&quot]I did wind up pregnant at the age of 15 and ran away from home to protect the baby. My mother was going to drag me off to an abortion clinic to &#8220;get rid of it&#8221;. I slept in abandoned buildings, mooching food and hiding out until such time as it would be &#8220;to late&#8221; to kill him. I was willing to give him up for adoption if that meant he had a chance at life but I was not willing to kill him because I was only 15 and my life was a total mess. It was not his fault for anything that happened to me. It was not his fault my life was a disaster.It would have made no difference to me who the father of the baby was, he was still a living baby that was not to blame for anything.
[/FONT]
 
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Sketcher

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I believe I misspoke when calling it an "abortive" drink. I didn't realize the emphasis that was being expressed earlier, so that's why I agreed with that statement. No, clearly it is NOT an "abortive" special cocktail. Otherwise, they would've been the first to discover the morning after pill. No, the priests took a glass of Holy water and threw in some dirt and that's how they got "bitter water". So I was never operating under that assumption to begin with. Now, everything else u wrote left my head reeling.
OK then.

Since God is all-knowing, and he is the active factor in the Numbers 5 test, I think it's safe to say it's not really an abortive drink. If God knew a woman was unfaithful, and he knew that her husband would make her take the test, why would he allow her to conceive in the first place?
Now, THIS is an unfounded assumption. Upon realizing this, it would nullify the rest of ur argument. So, God who permits rape, murder and torture (even in the Bible) would never dare abort a fetus... oh...k. Sure. The flood wiped out fetuses, zygotes, man, woman and child back in Noah's day. I wouldn't under estimate Him when it comes to this. U know what God hates most? Never tell Him what He can and can't do, or what He will or won't do.

Job 40: 19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
What is unfounded about God's being all-knowing, or God's active hand in a covenant relationship with his people? Psalm 139, and even Numbers 5:27-28 are good counterexamples to this assertion. Furthermore, while God allows people to do bad things to each other, and while God takes life and rightfully so (Job 1:21), this isn't an argument for God performing abortions in this instance, let alone that people can rightfully do so.

No, it is not speculative. It is in the footnotes that this drink caused miscarrying of the womb and barrenness in women God deemed guilty. There's no biblical evidence of a pregnant woman being tested in this manner PERIOD. So, ur conclusion that it NEVER happened is purely speculative as well. Do u notice a pattern of double standards here? I do.
In the footnotes, huh? You can go either way with those footnotes, which is why they're not in the body text. And me, I'm a Sola Scriptura believer. While it is not outlandish to assume a woman could have been pregnant while taking this test, there is no Biblical evidence of a pregnant woman taking this test, so you can't say for certain that God was killing pregnancies in this case.

Ur still missing the point that miscarrying of the womb (another term for abortion) which is listed 3-4 times in the footnotes was a big part of God's verdict. U keep leaving that part out and want to over romanticize Him with this, "He'll just keep her from getting pregnant. That's it." line. Basically, to me, u keep changing scripture bc it doesn't suit u. The passage said this curse can be ministered if you're jealous or u feel ur wife cheated on u. I'm sure in some of those cases a protruding belly was the very first clue. Incidents like that are commonplace in the 21st century, so I don't doubt that this took place in ancient times as well.
While one could reasonably assume so, that is really just an assumption and not truth reported in the Bible. There are other clues of course that a woman has been cheating, and in a tight-knit community, one can reasonably suggest that rumors would be flying before the first baby bump. This test is as much to clear the name of an accused woman as it is to disgrace a guilty one.

Again, as someone said earlier, this isn't just a Christian matter. It is a womanly matter, first and foremost, and not all of them are Christians. So, for those who have been raped or are too young or it turned into a medical emergency, which is more practical in this day and age? Doctors performing abortions or every single woman on earth in need of one visiting their local priests so that they can be cursed, only for "time to tell"? U forget, the Israelites were subjected to God, while there was a whole other tribe of people who weren't. Those were the rules the Israelites had to follow, while the Gentiles were relying on other methods at the time, I'm sure. Don't know what they were but obviously the Israelites weren't the only ones in our culture worried about unwanted/unexpected pregnancies. That issue is universal. So, bringing this matter to God wasn't the only method in practice or available even in those days, but I bet abortions and miscarriages took place all the same.
This is part of why you can't connect the Numbers 5 law to abortions today. That was a law of jealousy, only given to Jews, and it's not a law that permits abortion by man. In fact, I can't think of a single law either to Jews or to the whole world that does, though there are some interpretations that allow for it only in a medical emergency.

I AM I AM. I am about to go to the abortion client. I am about to go to the store. I am about to go to the movies. God commissions everything under the sun.
You'd have to say that God commissions rape, murder, kidnapping, abuse, and all kinds of other war crimes, in all instances for this to fly, and I don't believe that for a second. Just because he allows something, doesn't mean he commissions it.

So you're saying that life doesn't start til well into the pregnancy then? (ie, a "womb that miscarries" doesn't allow the life to even start) Or maybe you're just making things up because you want the scriptures to agree with you rather than the other way around.
Hey, I'm not the one trying to tie Numbers 5 to abortion (since a miscarriage, unless forced by man, is not an abortion) nor am I asserting that this happened to pregnant women when there is no Biblical evidence that it did for sure, so I don't think I'm the one twisting Scripture here.
 
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