Yes, so I don't support abortion: I decline to deprive women of rights. And?
Ok.
Have a good evening.
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abortion?
- Thread starter chasingsafety
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Yes, so I don't support abortion: I decline to deprive women of rights. And?
Ok.
Have a good evening.See, it's responses like that which leave my head reeling. Isn't the claim here that abortion isn't Christianly? What would've happened if Mary aborted Jesus? Aren't all kids precious in God's sight? I thought that was your position at first. But now u'r saying the Jews didn't abort the fetus, God had ultimate authority in that decision (which He does to this very day as well). So now u admit He's ok with abortion and performed them as well?
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SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
So you support abortion, without saying "I support abortion"...correct?
Ok.
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SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
See, it's responses like that which leave my head reeling. Isn't the claim here that abortion isn't Christianly? What would've happened if Mary aborted Jesus? Aren't all kids precious in God's sight? I thought that was your position at first. But now u'r saying the Jews didn't abort the fetus, God had ultimate authority in that decision (which He does to this very day as well). So now u admit He's ok with abortion and performed them as well?
Here we go...NO, I'm saying God judges mankind.
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Sketcher
Born Imperishable
See, it's responses like that which leave my head reeling. Isn't the claim here that abortion isn't Christianly? What would've happened if Mary aborted Jesus? Aren't all kids precious in God's sight? I thought that was your position at first. But now u'r saying the Jews didn't abort the fetus, God had ultimate authority in that decision (which He does to this very day as well). So now u admit He's ok with abortion and performed them as well?
It will only leave your head reeling if you accept the unfounded assumption that it's an abortive drink. Since God is all-knowing, and he is the active factor in the Numbers 5 test, I think it's safe to say it's not really an abortive drink. If God knew a woman was unfaithful, and he knew that her husband would make her take the test, why would he allow her to conceive in the first place? There is no Biblical evidence of a pregnant woman drinking this drink and then miscarrying, so what anyone says about this drink being abortive is purely speculative. Besides, you're missing the point here: A big part of this test is the "time will tell" factor. If she was unfaithful, then she wouldn't be able to have children. If she was faithful, she would, and God would "open up her womb" to vindicate her, because God is a just God who will protect the reputations of his daughters (Num 5:27).
Furthermore, the claim that God performs abortions has no bearing on whether it's acceptable for humans to perform them. God has special rights reserved for him, and him alone. He can judge the world, we cannot. He can take revenge, we cannot. He can take life, we in most cases cannot.
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SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
I wonder what kind of weak god people worship...does (can?) God judge a man or a woman? Yes. Does He kill when His holiness is threatened? Yes. Does He have undeserved mercy on humanity? Yes. Do most people have a false view of the true God? Yes.
Wake up from deception and read the bible people! And believe it.
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I believe I misspoke when calling it an "abortive" drink. I didn't realize the emphasis that was being expressed earlier, so that's why I agreed with that statement. No, clearly it is NOT an "abortive" special cocktail. Otherwise, they would've been the first to discover the morning after pill. No, the priests took a glass of Holy water and threw in some dirt and that's how they got "bitter water". So I was never operating under that assumption to begin with. Now, everything else u wrote left my head reeling.
Now, THIS is an unfounded assumption. Upon realizing this, it would nullify the rest of ur argument. So, God who permits rape, murder and torture (even in the Bible) would never dare abort a fetus... oh...k. Sure. The flood wiped out fetuses, zygotes, man, woman and child back in Noah's day. I wouldn't under estimate Him when it comes to this. U know what God hates most? Never tell Him what He can and can't do, or what He will or won't do.
Job 40: 19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
No, it is not speculative. It is in the footnotes that this drink caused miscarrying of the womb and barrenness in women God deemed guilty. There's no biblical evidence of a pregnant woman being tested in this manner PERIOD. So, ur conclusion that it NEVER happened is purely speculative as well. Do u notice a pattern of double standards here? I do.
Ur still missing the point that miscarrying of the womb (another term for abortion) which is listed 3-4 times in the footnotes was a big part of God's verdict. U keep leaving that part out and want to over romanticize Him with this, "He'll just keep her from getting pregnant. That's it." line. Basically, to me, u keep changing scripture bc it doesn't suit u. The passage said this curse can be ministered if you're jealous or u feel ur wife cheated on u. I'm sure in some of those cases a protruding belly was the very first clue. Incidents like that are commonplace in the 21st century, so I don't doubt that this took place in ancient times as well.
Again, as someone said earlier, this isn't just a Christian matter. It is a womanly matter, first and foremost, and not all of them are Christians. So, for those who have been raped or are too young or it turned into a medical emergency, which is more practical in this day and age? Doctors performing abortions or every single woman on earth in need of one visiting their local priests so that they can be cursed, only for "time to tell"? U forget, the Israelites were subjected to God, while there was a whole other tribe of people who weren't. Those were the rules the Israelites had to follow, while the Gentiles were relying on other methods at the time, I'm sure. Don't know what they were but obviously the Israelites weren't the only ones in our culture worried about unwanted/unexpected pregnancies. That issue is universal. So, bringing this matter to God wasn't the only method in practice or available even in those days, but I bet abortions and miscarriages took place all the same. I AM I AM. I am about to go to the abortion client. I am about to go to the store. I am about to go to the movies. God commissions everything under the sun.
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NO, I'm saying God judges mankind.
SOS, I've been reading, that's the topic of this thread and people are in this thread saying how can u be a Christian and support abortion...I can't believe a Christian could say those things. So, if u are changing the topic of this OP then u are the only one doing so. However, I don't support abortion but the argument from posters other than u is that it is NOT Christianly. Not that God judges mankind. That was another thread. All I'm wondering is how is it NOT Christianly if scripture states otherwise?
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I was googling Judges 11:30-40, and I came across this link.
Hosea 9: 14 Give them, LORD—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.
In this verse, God shows how He fully intends to impregnate women that will eventually miscarry. He didn't just prevent them from conceiving, so ur assumption is incorrect.
Hosea 13:16
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”
God's very much an over lord. His wrath burns deep.
Hosea 9: 14 Give them, LORD—
what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
and breasts that are dry.
In this verse, God shows how He fully intends to impregnate women that will eventually miscarry. He didn't just prevent them from conceiving, so ur assumption is incorrect.
Hosea 13:16
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”
God's very much an over lord. His wrath burns deep.
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SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
arj...what are you talking about?
You seem to be very confused, I think you should reread the thread.
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hmm... i think it also depends from what age the woman has, and if she can garantee the child a good future... also if she can get help from family and friends..
but i think that if i were in such a situation i would abort it... i mean, it would just completly change my life, and i don't know if i would be able to actually... love it..
i wouldn't want to be a mother who doesn't love their child 100%
but i think that if i were in such a situation i would abort it... i mean, it would just completly change my life, and i don't know if i would be able to actually... love it..
i wouldn't want to be a mother who doesn't love their child 100%
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SoldierOfSoul
Senior Veteran
So YOU would murder a unborn child (YOUR child) because it would change YOUR life and YOU don't feel like "YOU could love IT".
See how selfish and hateful this is?
Where does the child get a choice in this? Does he/she have a say in whether it lives?
Abortion should not be an option. Just because it is, does not make it right, it is a evil, malignant, demonic, selfish act that God will judge. Beware.
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Oh my goodness, this string certainly has become terribly heated.
One of the things we as Christians must always keep first in our minds is that we either are Christians under the new covenant or like the pharisees under the old covenant. We cannot be both, God does not allow for this. Either we choose the grace of the new covenant or the curse of the old one. Galatians 3:10-14
As Christians we are commanded to love, love, love, forgive, forgive, forgive. Jesus tells us that over and over and over again.This is the "law of the new covenant"
To murder a baby is NOT loving that baby.To justify that murder by saying the father is a rapist is human justification not Godly because God calls us to forgive as well as to love.
VERY hard indeed BUT God never allows us to be tested beyond what we can endure.He didn't say our walks would be easy. He is always with us. If a Christian woman were allowed to be tested in this way we can all rest assured the Lord is right there with her and will make her ABLE to do the right thing.
It HAS happened. I read a testimony of a young Christian girl that was raped and became pregnant. She told about how God comforted her and strengthened her and helped her to forgive the man that did this to her. She talked about how the Lord healed her broken body, heart and spirit and she talked about the deep love she has for her daughter that she chose to keep. She sees her as the beautiful triumph that came out of the tragedy. A beautiful gift from God.
Looking at the old testament scriptures tells us quite clearly that abortion/miscarrying (of any kind spontaneous or not), infertility were all curses, NOT what God wants for His children. Children are a blessing from God and we are told this over and over and over in scriptures. To not be able to have children or to lose them is a curse. Again, NOT what God WANTS for us, rather what satan WANTS for us.
The scriptures in Numbers is not a justification to murdering a baby nor is it akin to a "morning after" pill. They deliberately POISONED these women and counted on God to protect them from that poisoning if they were innocent. What happened to these women if God did not protect them affected more than their womb at that "moment in time" and was a permanent problem for them. They were a curse among their people, just like they considered everyone else that was unhealthy (lepers for example) or could not produce children to build up the nation of Israelites.
The original text again need to be consulted to understand these set of verses in it's entirety.
Numbers 5:27
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
Looking at this scriptures and seeing what drinking this bitter water causes is quite similar to what happens when someone ingests a neuro toxin.(like heavy metals that were likely in the soil they put in the Holy water) The belly swells from ascites (excessive fluid build up in the abdominal area) in people that ingest a toxin because it kills the liver and prevents the liver from producing the protein albumin.
ALL KINDS of problems accur when we poison our bodies to this point of destroying the liver. Muscle wasting (thighs rot being most visible ) is throughout the body, including the uterus that would prolapse (fall into itself, like turning it inside out, making it impossible to conceive a baby, the woman become permanently barren, she wouldn't just lose the one baby if she were even pregnant in the first place) Even if the prolapse wasn't severe enough to prevent pregnancy the hormone producing glands that make it possible to conceive (that has been altered or destroyed by the toxins) would make her unable to ovulate in the first place. Indeed cursed for life.
Never once will you find it in scriptures where God calls infertility or abortion, spontaneous or otherwise a blessing. It is ALWAYS a curse.
We are considered as people at conception in God's eyes.
Psalms 51:5Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Job 10:8-12
Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit.
Isaiah 44:2
This is what the LORD says--he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
When Rebekah was pregnant with Esau and Jacob they were already fighting each other inside the womb! Genesis 25 Jacob was already called by God before he was even born! Romans 9:11
The Greek and Hebrew words used for baby in scriptures are the exact same whether they are inside or out side the womb. The israelites saw no difference between them. Just because one was still inside the mother did not make the baby any less important than the ones on the outside.
God puts every bit as much value on the unborn as the born. The old covenant law called for the death penalty if someone caused a pregnant woman to miscarry and her baby died as a result of the premature birth. A life for a life. Can't get much plainer than that.
Exodus 22:22-24
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
One of the things we as Christians must always keep first in our minds is that we either are Christians under the new covenant or like the pharisees under the old covenant. We cannot be both, God does not allow for this. Either we choose the grace of the new covenant or the curse of the old one. Galatians 3:10-14
As Christians we are commanded to love, love, love, forgive, forgive, forgive. Jesus tells us that over and over and over again.This is the "law of the new covenant"
To murder a baby is NOT loving that baby.To justify that murder by saying the father is a rapist is human justification not Godly because God calls us to forgive as well as to love.
VERY hard indeed BUT God never allows us to be tested beyond what we can endure.He didn't say our walks would be easy. He is always with us. If a Christian woman were allowed to be tested in this way we can all rest assured the Lord is right there with her and will make her ABLE to do the right thing.
It HAS happened. I read a testimony of a young Christian girl that was raped and became pregnant. She told about how God comforted her and strengthened her and helped her to forgive the man that did this to her. She talked about how the Lord healed her broken body, heart and spirit and she talked about the deep love she has for her daughter that she chose to keep. She sees her as the beautiful triumph that came out of the tragedy. A beautiful gift from God.
Looking at the old testament scriptures tells us quite clearly that abortion/miscarrying (of any kind spontaneous or not), infertility were all curses, NOT what God wants for His children. Children are a blessing from God and we are told this over and over and over in scriptures. To not be able to have children or to lose them is a curse. Again, NOT what God WANTS for us, rather what satan WANTS for us.
The scriptures in Numbers is not a justification to murdering a baby nor is it akin to a "morning after" pill. They deliberately POISONED these women and counted on God to protect them from that poisoning if they were innocent. What happened to these women if God did not protect them affected more than their womb at that "moment in time" and was a permanent problem for them. They were a curse among their people, just like they considered everyone else that was unhealthy (lepers for example) or could not produce children to build up the nation of Israelites.
The original text again need to be consulted to understand these set of verses in it's entirety.
Numbers 5:27
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
Looking at this scriptures and seeing what drinking this bitter water causes is quite similar to what happens when someone ingests a neuro toxin.(like heavy metals that were likely in the soil they put in the Holy water) The belly swells from ascites (excessive fluid build up in the abdominal area) in people that ingest a toxin because it kills the liver and prevents the liver from producing the protein albumin.
ALL KINDS of problems accur when we poison our bodies to this point of destroying the liver. Muscle wasting (thighs rot being most visible ) is throughout the body, including the uterus that would prolapse (fall into itself, like turning it inside out, making it impossible to conceive a baby, the woman become permanently barren, she wouldn't just lose the one baby if she were even pregnant in the first place) Even if the prolapse wasn't severe enough to prevent pregnancy the hormone producing glands that make it possible to conceive (that has been altered or destroyed by the toxins) would make her unable to ovulate in the first place. Indeed cursed for life.
Never once will you find it in scriptures where God calls infertility or abortion, spontaneous or otherwise a blessing. It is ALWAYS a curse.
We are considered as people at conception in God's eyes.
Psalms 51:5Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Job 10:8-12
Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit.
Isaiah 44:2
This is what the LORD says--he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
When Rebekah was pregnant with Esau and Jacob they were already fighting each other inside the womb! Genesis 25 Jacob was already called by God before he was even born! Romans 9:11
The Greek and Hebrew words used for baby in scriptures are the exact same whether they are inside or out side the womb. The israelites saw no difference between them. Just because one was still inside the mother did not make the baby any less important than the ones on the outside.
God puts every bit as much value on the unborn as the born. The old covenant law called for the death penalty if someone caused a pregnant woman to miscarry and her baby died as a result of the premature birth. A life for a life. Can't get much plainer than that.
Exodus 22:22-24
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
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So you're saying that life doesn't start til well into the pregnancy then? (ie, a "womb that miscarries" doesn't allow the life to even start) Or maybe you're just making things up because you want the scriptures to agree with you rather than the other way around.
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arj...what are you talking about?
You seem to be very confused, I think you should reread the thread.
SOS, when I first responded, I had missed this post. Sorry. So, I believe that's why my responses are confusing in this regard. Plz ignore it. I understand what u were saying about God's judgment in ur argument.
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and
wow... you're right...
i wish they'd teach us this in class instead of making it sound as if it weren't bad...
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I personally didn't know who Maermma's post was addressed to. To me, it just seemed all over the place. Who called God a rapist? Who said the "drink" was equivalent to the morning after pill? I personally can't really tell where it got heated either Etc. It was confusing to read. What's the point? Curses are real. God will administer curses, thereby, so will Christ bc He is exactly like the Father. Satan will administer curses, people can administer curses (just like the priests did in scripture). It is commonly referred to as witchcraft. Christians can be cursed. Jews can be cursed. etc. So what? Didn't get it. Don't understand what that has to do with abortions. Maermma, u might have to clarify ur position in order for me to get it, if that post was addressed to me. Can't tell honestly, that's y I left it alone.
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I agree with him that even though you migth remeber a bad experience nothing is on accident.Remeber all things work for good to them that love God
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