abortion?

[SoldierOfSoul]

Certainly, to a degree, pederasty was a socially acceptable institution. Normally, it didn't even involve physical sexual acts. It was considered the height of barbarism for the erastes to actually engage in that sort of behavior with the eromenos. The Lacedaimonians were reviled for their tendencies in that direction.

Percy and Nussbaum both note that it was considered unmanly for any activity to go beyond intercrural intercourse.

Plutarch wrote that actual intercourse was considered unthinkable.

Wow dude, that is way too much info on a disgusting subject that you have no reason for being interested in. Saying that, you still ignored my point which was and still is: Christian morality is not based on man's law but on God's and His word.

 

[Bella Vita]

ohhhh, moving the goalposts I see. I will also add exclamation points to show I am SERIOUS!!!!!



So do you wear clothing made of mixed materials?



I don't think God is a murderer, lol. Its your logic, not mine.



What are we? Twelve? So petty.

Ok well you are being ridiculous if you clearly can't see that this is wrong, and goes against God then I don't know what else to tell you. But you need to check yourself and have a serious heart to heart with the lord. You are wrong and you need to get over your own pride and face it. I am done fighting with you on this topic. You will have to work it out with God one on one.

 

[Incariol]

Well I just think thats rediculous if you think a parent or adult shouldn't tell their kid that they probably shouldnt be having sex

I'm not a parent at the moment, are you even reading my posts?

"
Originally Posted by Incariol

I don't tell children what to do with their bodies either. I leave that up to themselves and their legal guardians. Pediatric care is rather off-topic to this thread.
​

Oh Lord! Why don't we just give 8 year olds free condoms in cereal boxes?!?, thats a great idea"

 

[Incariol]

Ok well you are being ridiculous if you clearly can't see that this is wrong, and goes against God then I don't know what else to tell you. But you need to check yourself and have a serious heart to heart with the lord. You are wrong and you need to get over your own pride and face it. I am done fighting with you on this topic. You will have to work it out with God one on one.

Bye bye then.

 

[Incariol]

Wow dude, that is way too much info on a disgusting subject that you have no reason for being interested in.

I actually did. Its called an upper-division human sexuality course. Try again.

Saying that, you still ignored my point which was and still is: Christian morality is not based on man's law but on God's and His word.

Is this the part where you claim to be the infallible interpreter of what that law is in contrast to me?

 

[chris4243]

Lies! Nothing in that chapter (although confusing) mentions abortion, try again.

So giving a woman a drink that can terminate her pregnancy, is not about abortion?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Is this the part where you claim to be the infallible interpreter of what that law is in contrast to me?

No, I just don't understand the mind of a Christian who supports abortion. Tell me, would it have been OK for Mary to abort Jesus Christ?

 

[Incariol]

No, I just don't understand the mind of a Christian who supports abortion. Tell me, would it have been OK for Mary to abort Jesus Christ?

Why do you think I support abortion?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

So giving a woman a drink that can terminate her pregnancy, is not about abortion?

It doesn't say that, it was a curse for SIN and the point of the curse was not to terminate a pregnancy but to dry up the women womb so that she could not produce children anymore. Barrenness was considered a curse in biblical times because of this. Not only this, but even if a baby was in the womb and it was killed because of this drink the outcome was left up to God.

Read the chapter again and you will see that nothing in the drink killed the baby it was but a signifying act of suspicion that was left up to the judgement of God. God chose the outcome of what the drink would do, sin has consequences and God is not bound by moral judgements like man is because everything He does is right and good and He alone has the authority to kill because He is the author of life and the eternal judge of all men. Sometimes in certain situations He (temporally) gives man this authority for the good of humanity, but it is always according to justice and holiness. How do you take this case and justify abortion that is used basically as birth control in our current society?

21then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh rot and your belly swell;
22and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.”

 

[Sketcher]

I don't blame anyone for not wanting the baby, but I can't justify abortion in the case of a rape. The manner in which someone was conceived has no bearing on whether he or she is a person or not. And a person has the right to live. Someone who was conceived in that way, remember, is innocent. He or she is not the rapist. I'm the kind of person who believes it is much more just to execute the rapist and let the baby live, rather than the opposite, which is all too common now.

Furthermore, in terms of trauma, women who have been in that situation who didn't abort have been shown to have done better than their counterparts who did abort. Rape and Incest are Tragic, But Abortion Doesn't Heal the Pain

 

[arj1981]

Yes abortion is mentioned in the Bible in black and white, in Numbers 5. It is a husband's right to abort a child not his own.

1. Numbers 5:21 Or causes you to have a miscarrying womb and barrenness
2. Numbers 5:22 Or body and cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb
3. Numbers 5:27 Or suffering; she will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb

Well, now we know God's official word on abortion and had this hypothetical person been married when she was raped and conceived, we know the answer on that too... yet a lot say abortion isn't "Christianly". The irony. LOL. That's why I try to tell people they have an over romanticized version of God if they keep glossing over all of these facts. God's very much capable of all of these things. In this passage, He's instructing His priests on how to administer a curse (again, curses are real) in the event that a husband suspects his wife of cheating. That's y I try to tell others He's an overlord in every aspect of the word, yet they don't want to hear me. LOL. Oh well, that won't lead to my downfall. Regarding abortion, I've never cared to take a side on this debate. I'm glad I made the choice I did though. I'm glad I got a second opinion and listened to God.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Why do you think I support abortion?

Your post:

I think there's really no ethical, religious or common sense basis for a man like me to tell a woman, who might not be a Christian, what to do with her body.

Whatever, I won't bite anymore.

 

[arj1981]

So giving a woman a drink that can terminate her pregnancy, is not about abortion?

It qualifies as abortion, Chris. Anyone that doesn't want to see it is splitting hairs. It's called denial. It happens.

 

[chris4243]

It doesn't say that, it was a curse for SIN and the point of the curse was not to terminate a pregnancy but to dry up the women womb so that she could not produce children anymore. Barrenness was considered a curse in biblical times because of this. Not only this, but even if a baby was in the womb and it was killed because of this drink the outcome was left up to God.

Read the chapter again and you will see that nothing in the drink killed the baby it was but a signifying act of suspicion that was left up to the judgement of God. God chose the outcome of what the drink would do, sin has consequences and God is not bound by moral judgements like man is because everything He does is right and good and He alone has the authority to kill because He is the author of life and the eternal judge of all men. Sometimes in certain situations He (temporally) gives man this authority for the good of humanity, but it is always according to justice and holiness. How do you take this case and justify abortion that is used basically as birth control in our current society?

But according to the verse, it is not up to God as you say but rather depends only on whether the woman in question has had relations only with her husband.

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

If it was simply the LORD's doing, why the need for the special drink?

 

[Sketcher]

So giving a woman a drink that can terminate her pregnancy, is not about abortion?

A test for an unfaithful wife proscribed by God can't be given as evidence for abortion as an issue today being acceptable. Abortion today mainly boils down to convenience, though a few are actually health related.

 

[Sketcher]

If it was simply the LORD's doing, why the need for the special drink?

To administer a trial by fire.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

But according to the verse, it is not up to God as you say but rather depends only on whether the woman in question has had relations only with her husband.

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

If it was simply the LORD's doing, why the need for the special drink?

The guilty woman and the innocent woman would both be given the SAME drink, God was the Authority of the outcome, "If she has done this...this would happen..." because GOD said it would. The Jews did not have a special drink that killed a fetus in the womb.

 

[chris4243]

Well we don't have priests anymore, but our scientists can fulfill the law from Numbers 5, at least if there is a pregnancy in question. We can do a DNA test on the fetus, and if the fetus does not belong to the father we can terminate the pregnancy or even make it so she can't have children as described in Numbers 5. Pretty nifty, huh?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Well we don't have priests anymore, but our scientists can fulfill the law from Numbers 5, at least if there is a pregnancy in question. We can do a DNA test on the fetus, and if the fetus does not belong to the father we can terminate the pregnancy or even make it so she can't have children as described in Numbers 5. Pretty nifty, huh?

Yes, it was a harsh law, but the law was not the final revelation nor heart of God. He only desired and demanded holiness of His chosen people, they were to be separate from the rest of the world.

A scientist is not God...again the decision was left up to GOD in this chapter not man.

 

[Sketcher]

Well we don't have priests anymore, but our scientists can fulfill the law from Numbers 5, at least if there is a pregnancy in question. We can do a DNA test on the fetus, and if the fetus does not belong to the father we can terminate the pregnancy or even make it so she can't have children as described in Numbers 5. Pretty nifty, huh?

Not really, since the test in Numbers 5 relies on an all-knowing God who made a covenant with his people, implying that he will actively intervene and do his part in certain matters of uncertainty such as this. What modern science can cobble together is prone to error, but God doesn't make mistakes.

Not only that, since God is all-knowing, I think it's safe to say it's not really an abortive drink. If God knew a woman was unfaithful, and he knew that her husband would make her take the test, why would he allow her to conceive in the first place? There is no Biblical evidence of a pregnant woman drinking this drink and then miscarrying, so what you're saying about this drink being abortive is purely speculative. Besides, you're missing the point here: A big part of this test is the "time will tell" factor. If she was unfaithful, then she wouldn't be able to have children. If she was faithful, she would, and God would "open up her womb" to vindicate her, because God is a just God who will protect the reputations of his daughters (Num 5:27).