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Rauffenburg

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@Nathan45
The person, was also, billions of years ago was a bunch of random hydrogen atoms floating around space. Before the zygote was formed, it was a sperm and egg, which were constructed from proteins, possibly the same ones as the chickens people buy at the grocery store.

Furthermore, 99.9% of that person wasn't the zygote, it was from other raw material added to the zygote later.

Of course, your whole body (or at least a large part of it) continouusly regenerates itself and replaces old parts with new parts. Yet that does not have an impact on your identity - you are still the same, still identical to yourself, regardless the change of matter. So when it comes to personal identity it is plausible to take the identity of a specific biological process as the condition for your personal identity. And that process started once as a zygote.

really, no, individuality has nothing to do with individual rights. Do identical twins not have individual rights?

You are correct that one zygote is different from another zygote, as stated it has a unique set of human DNA. However, from a probabilistic perspective, that unique set is no likely to be better or worse than any other set. Any sperm + any egg has a unique set of DNA, same as the zygote. I disagree that because a zygote is unique that in and of itself makes it valuable.

Actually I did not want to suggest that it is uniqueness alone that makes something valueable. In this specific case it is uniqueness and identity with a possible future person that may make it valueable - provided you think that potential persons are valuable, a thesis which can be contested of course.

And individuality has to do with individual rights of course. That which is no individual cannot have individual rights. Just to make it clear that this idea has some consequences. In my eyes the very first stages of development are ethically unproblematic even from the point of view that potential persons deserve special protection - because there are no conditions on which we can assert the biological individuality of the newly fertilized egg. It just isn't determined whether there will be one, two, three, four or more individuals. And without an individual entity, who is it to have any rights? To have rights requires a subject of rights; in this case it is not determinable whether such a subject exists.

There are no identical twins. There are twins with nearly identical DNA, but they are not identical when it comes to the question of personal identity. They are nevertheless two different biological beings.

I disagree. A zygote is just DNA in a cell. I think that conservation of matter/energy should tell you for sure that all of the materials used to form the zygote do not come from that one original cell. 99.99+% of the raw materials used to make the person do not come from the orginal zygote. I think comparing it to a blueprint is an apt comparison.

The zygote is a living process - a thing which you do not get simply by putting all the elements togehter. As far as I know there is no conclusive theory of how we can get from non-living matter to living matter in the most primitive sense (not to be confused with organic matter such as amino acids - there are theories and well tested experiments for that). Nevertheless, I think that the way matter is organized, in this case as a living process, contributes to its identity conditions. I even think that being alive is a necessary property for the persisting identity of biological beings. In simpler diction: A dead cat is never the same thing as a living cat.

I don't see why the argument from potentiality, if such a thing exists, should apply to zygotes but not to sperms and eggs.

Because a sperm in never identical with a potential future person. In fact the sperm ceases to exist when it fertilizes the egg. The same is true for the egg as an egg simply - but not for the fertilized egg insofar as it is developing normally. In that case the argument from potentiality gets in. As far as I can see, it rests on these premises (at least).

1. There is some meaningful talk of identity between actually existing zygotes and potential future persons. That could be motivated by stating that we can talk about yourselves as zygotes, looking back in the past, which seems to imply that back then we as zygotes where already identical with us now.

2. Potential future persons are ethically relevant. Of course they are not as relevant as real persons with real rights; yet the argument has to assume that they are relevant in some sense.

I do not want to deny that each one can be contested on different grounds. But my whole intention is to show that the case of abortion is not that simple as it may seem for both sides - either Christian conservative or liberal atheists.
 
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wanderingone

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You may disagree that it should be a murder charge, but in Ohio it is. Below is a synopsis and I have checked with a common please court justice and she has informed me that indeed it is the law and it is often applied.

What I was saying was if the charge was "causing a miscarriage" then it didn't sound like you were talking about a murder charge. That's why I was asking the OP what the laws actually said... paraphrasing doesn't work on such topics, and I'm not up to date on the current laws. -- and since it wasn't my OP I didn't honestly feel like doing to research. If one is going to go on and on about what a law says then it makes sense to provide the actual language of the law rather than guess what it says.

Washington provided a link to a round up state laws on the topic and I commented based on that synopsis.
 
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wanderingone

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Scientific facts? Do you contend that the child 5 minutes before birth is scientifically any less human than the child 5 minutes after birth?

A full term healthy fetus five minutes before birth is viable.... yes it's most likely the same child as one 5 minutes after birth. I take no issue with a murder charge for a viable fetus that is killed during the commission of a crime. Where did I say I considered a full term fetus to be the same as a non viable fetus?
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Wanderingone,
A full term healthy fetus five minutes before birth is viable.... yes it's most likely the same child as one 5 minutes after birth.
Its most likely? If its only likely how do you know?
I take no issue with a murder charge for a viable fetus that is killed during the commission of a crime. Where did I say I considered a full term fetus to be the same as a non viable fetus?
The question was about a child not a foetus, whats a viable foetus to you is a child to me and others.

When does the foetus become vaible, who can say, people have different ideas.
When does the life and the child become viable, well there will be no child ever without conception and naturally after conception there will a child. The argument about foetuses is one which avoids the observable reality.

As with same sex unions we seem to be arguing with those who cant see reality.
 
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tcampen

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Murder is a specific legal term, not one we can just throw around to mean anything we want when presented with the issue in OP. Abortion is only murder if the law says its murder. One could argue they'd like it to be murder, but that doesn't make it so. The concept behind abortion is that it is ultimately the mother's choice to keep the pregnancy, not a third party when they kill the mother and her unborn.

I won't pretend it's an easy concept to work through, but it isn't just making it up, either. The viability of the fetus often plays a part as well, and understandably.

Either way, it really does not advance the pro-life or the pro-choice positions..
 
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No Swansong

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well, the point is, if you think that a baby 5 minutes before birth is the same as a baby 5 minutes after birth, do you think that a sperm and an egg is different from a sperm inside of an egg?



I've already answered this yes I consider them different. Neither the sperm nor the ovum has the requisite number of chromosomes necessary to produce human life by themselves, nor can they reproduce themselves, sperm doesn't come from sperm. Ova do not come from ova. Indeed there is a difference between a separate sperm and ovum and a fertilized ovum.
 
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No Swansong

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A full term healthy fetus five minutes before birth is viable.... yes it's most likely the same child as one 5 minutes after birth. I take no issue with a murder charge for a viable fetus that is killed during the commission of a crime. Where did I say I considered a full term fetus to be the same as a non viable fetus?

OK then let's discuss only viable fetuses. Is it just to charge one person with murder who causes the death of a fetus through an overt action (let's say a shooting) and not charge someone else who causes the same fetus' death through another overt procedure such as that which is called a partial birth abortion? We will assume in this case that the person shooting intended to end the life of the fetus.
 
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cantata

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OK then let's discuss only viable fetuses. Is it just to charge one person with murder who causes the death of a fetus through an overt action (let's say a shooting) and not charge someone else who causes the same fetus' death through another overt procedure such as that which is called a partial birth abortion? We will assume in this case that the person shooting intended to end the life of the fetus.

Yes.

Foetal "murder" laws exist to console and protect pregnant women and their families, not foetuses.
 
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No Swansong

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Yes.

Foetal "murder" laws exist to console and protect pregnant women and their families, not foetuses.




Can you document this please? Specifically looking for something from the legislators who passed such laws not a third party opinion.

The reason I ask is because the Justice I mentioned earlier has assured me that a fetal murder charge (at least in my State) is indeed a charge based upon a crime commited against the fetus not the mother.
 
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wanderingone

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OK then let's discuss only viable fetuses. Is it just to charge one person with murder who causes the death of a fetus through an overt action (let's say a shooting) and not charge someone else who causes the same fetus' death through another overt procedure such as that which is called a partial birth abortion? We will assume in this case that the person shooting intended to end the life of the fetus.

If you don't consider it just then I suggest we eliminate the possibility of charging someone with murder when they commit an illegal act that results in a miscarriage.
 
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No Swansong

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If you don't consider it just then I suggest we eliminate the possibility of charging someone with murder when they commit an illegal act that results in a miscarriage.


That of course is one option. Another option that I suggest is charging anyone who purposely causes the death of a viable fetus with murder.
 
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wanderingone

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To Wanderingone,
Its most likely? If its only likely how do you know?

I don't know, that's why I said likely. Women have gone into labor in a pregnancy that appears to be healthy and ended up mourning over a stillbirth. The child who seems to be healthy in the womb may have an unknown condition that presents itself during or immediately after birth.

I may be way off, the fetus 5 minutes before birth may be very UNLIKELY to be in the same condition as the infant 5 minutes after that birth.
 
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Skaloop

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OK then let's discuss only viable fetuses. Is it just to charge one person with murder who causes the death of a fetus through an overt action (let's say a shooting) and not charge someone else who causes the same fetus' death through another overt procedure such as that which is called a partial birth abortion? We will assume in this case that the person shooting intended to end the life of the fetus.

For the same sort of reason as it is just to charge one person with murder who causes the death of another person through an overt action with malice aforethought (let's say a shooting) and not charge someone else who causes the same person's death through another overt procedure that is called warfare. Or why we don't charge a person who kills another through self-defense. Or through a court-approved death sentence. Or by accident.

There are legal ways to cause the death of another, and abortion is one of those ways.
 
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cantata

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Can you document this please? Specifically looking for something from the legislators who passed such laws not a third party opinion.

No.

You misunderstand me. Whatever is said about the law, it exists because it is useful for it to exist for pregnant women and their families.

The reason I ask is because the Justice I mentioned earlier has assured me that a fetal murder charge (at least in my State) is indeed a charge based upon a crime commited against the fetus not the mother.

Yes, I dare say. Because people want it to be that way.

A pregnant woman who miscarries because of assault, or the family of a pregnant woman who is murdered, regard the foetus to be a baby, a little person. It is for their benefit therefore that it is legally possible to use the term "murder" with regard to a foetus.
 
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wanderingone

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That of course is one option. Another option that I suggest is charging anyone who purposely causes the death of a viable fetus with murder.

Suggest all you want

Late term abortion is rare, is limited or banned in more than half of American states and I see no reason to make the anti abortion argument around late term abortion. 90 percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks. Late term abortions (after 20 weeks) are estimated to be less than 1% of all abortions. Abortion at 6 months may well be due to maternal or fetal compromise. When the doctor delivered my oldest daughter a month early because my organs started to shut down when toxemia could not be controlled. If she had died during the delivery would I and my doctor have been murderers because she was delivered to keep me from dying?
 
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No Swansong

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For the same sort of reason as it is just to charge one person with murder who causes the death of another person through an overt action with malice aforethought (let's say a shooting) and not charge someone else who causes the same person's death through another overt procedure that is called warfare. Or why we don't charge a person who kills another through self-defense. Or through a court-approved death sentence. Or by accident.

There are legal ways to cause the death of another, and abortion is one of those ways.


Ok so then the problem is that it is legal.
 
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No Swansong

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Suggest all you want

Late term abortion is rare, is limited or banned in more than half of American states and I see no reason to make the anti abortion argument around late term abortion. 90 percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks. Late term abortions (after 20 weeks) are estimated to be less than 1% of all abortions. Abortion at 6 months may well be due to maternal or fetal compromise. When the doctor delivered my oldest daughter a month early because my organs started to shut down when toxemia could not be controlled. If she had died during the delivery would I and my doctor have been murderers because she was delivered to keep me from dying?


Hey I'm not the one who wanted to limit the discussion to just viable fetuses you did. But you still didn't answer the question.

Additionally I am sure that you are aware that our incoming president has vowed to sign FOCA which would overturn any and all limitations on abortions.

As for your situation, self-defense has been a long held justification for the taking of human life and I do not support removing it as such. However I am sure you realize that very few abortions take place due to the reasons you mentioned necessary for your early delivery. As I am sure you are aware over 95% of abortions in the U.S. are for birth control.
 
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No Swansong

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No.

You misunderstand me. Whatever is said about the law, it exists because it is useful for it to exist for pregnant women and their families.



Yes, I dare say. Because people want it to be that way.

A pregnant woman who miscarries because of assault, or the family of a pregnant woman who is murdered, regard the foetus to be a baby, a little person. It is for their benefit therefore that it is legally possible to use the term "murder" with regard to a foetus.



No I didn't misunderstand you, I am asserting that your comment doesn't agree with that of a justice (judge) who deals with these laws everyday in her courtroom.

Surely if your assertion is factual then either those who composed the laws or those who passed them must have made a comment that agrees with it (your assertion).
 
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No Swansong

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My friends, my spiritual father has asked me to refrain from discussion and debate on this particular subject, thus I will not post further. If my earlier comments have been offensive to any of you, please PM me and I willl happily remove them.

I beg your forgiveness if I have seemed uncharitable.
 
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