Abortion

[Tavita]

Murder is of course wrong, but the expulsion of a foetus is not murder. There has been plenty of scientific testing done, and it shows that the foetus does not feel pain up to a certain point, and after this point it is illegal to abort the foetus.

But in all this, it is not the foetus' choice. The choice belongs the mother who will have to raise the child, birth the child, and feed the child. These are all things that the mother takes into consideration before abortion happens. If she cannot do this, or does not feel it is a good idea to do this then the foetus is aborted stopping pain for both after its birth.

There are plenty of cases when not giving birth to the foetus is the better thing. There can be no argument with that.

It's well documented though that abortion doesn't stop the pain, especially for the woman. She will suffer, even if privately.

Personally, I believe the only case for abortion now is if the mother's life is in danger. Though at one point, long before I became a believer, I was given the option and would have done it if the test had been positive.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The baby has a fully working nervous system at 6 weeks. Abortions are performed as late as 32 weeks and even later.

At 22 weeks the abortionist literally ripps apart the baby one limb at a time. Imagine have a clamp on your leg and then having something pull and twist until your leg is ripped from your body. The this clamp proceeds to the next body part it can grab until only the head is left.

"Yeah... OK, no pain to the fetus. What science mag you read?" Get the facts! The baby feels pain.

STOP THE KILLING. 1.3 Million babies killed yearly in the USA. The mother says she has a right to do with her body as she pleases, what about the babies right to their body?

 

[Chajara]

It's gotta be hard to keep up this unrelenting charade of pretending an abortion you had was nothing more than the exercising of a civil right.
The knowing you killed an unborn child; and your own, no less, must indeed be agonizing in the extreme!

For this I have unbounded pity on you...

I'm sensing something more like scorn and perhaps schadenfreude. But that's just me.

 

[dayknee]

I have a friend who got an abortion. She refuses to admit that she did anything wrong. Will she go to Hell forever?

That depends..is she saved?
Does she believe who Jesus said he was/is, what he did on the cross, and does she believe he rose again?

Having an abortion doesnt damn you to hell..NOT knowing who Jesus Christ is..does.

If she is saved..the is forgiven..although she will have to live with the consequences of her sins..
Abortion should never be an option.

Just my two cents..

 

[dayknee]

No, she will not go to "hell" forever. She exsercised a constitutional right, and there is no sin in that. Its sad that she had the abortion, but she has rights. Rights which you can neither understand as a man or respect. So get over it.

Im a woman and I dont understand or respect it.

This isnt an issue of the sexes here. Many men dont approve of abortion.

 

[dayknee]

My problem is that I'm sick of people not respecting someone else's rights. There is nothing wrong with abortion, and I think someone up a few posts even mentions that the Bible does not say a thing about abortion!

Women have rights, and a fetus does not have the right to inhabit someone's body without their permission. Sounds harsh. But isn't outlawing abortion and forcing hapless women to shove knitting needles up into their uteruses harsh? Does that not disgust you, that until the seventies, this happened? Women DIED because a safe abortion was not available to them. So much for respecting human life.

This is the single most repulsive thing I have ever heard coming from a 15 year old. First..your statement about fetuses not having the right to inhabit a body without persmission is just very...well..it just shows that you were not thinking when you said this..Im sorry ..when a woman has sex..they do so under the understanding that a baby CAN inhabit their body..thus giving permission.
The sad thing is..is that too many women have died from botched abortions..these women should be having these babies and giving them up for adoption..not just aborting them.
IM sorry for you and if you are suffering in anyway..but your statments here show your lack of compassion for an innocent human.

 

[Nadiine]

to the OP.

Abortion is just the result of the spiritual condition in the first place.

I'd also add that alot of times people make denials of guilt publically, but don't think for one minute that she isn't being convicted in her heart and feeling alot of guilt/conviction.

IF she does truly believe shes' done nothing wrong, then again, it goes back to the spiritual condition. People who deny sin and don't get convicted are already in spiritual trouble thru searing their conscience for so long that they stopped feeling guilt.

Either way, she can deny the truth all she wants - but it doesn't change the reality of abortion being the taking of a human life (no matter what stage the life is in).

It would be a good idea to pray for her too

 

[joyinhislife]

Just to put in my two cents' worth; I am SSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad that my birth mother didn't decide to dismember me *sad smile*. I am grateful for her sacrifice for me, each and every day. So, from another perspective, I do believe that abortion is wrong, but I don't believe that someone would necessarily go to hell for this. I've done some reading on the subject and there are women out there who have had abortions and have been horribly sorry for it. I simply cannot imagine what it would be like, to wake up one day and realize that you had taken a life. May God help those women! God mentions so many times in the Bible that He knows us even when we are still in our mother's wombs. He blesses each and every life before we are born, and He has a purpose for each of us.
This has been 4 cents' worth instead of the proverbial 2 cents, but I do believe that adoption is the better option, IMHO .

 

[jellybean99]

Psalm 139:1-18

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.

 

[HuntingMan]

I have a friend who got an abortion. She refuses to admit that she did anything wrong. Will she go to Hell forever?

Unless there was some just cause in her taking her own childs life, such as her own life being in jeopardy in continuing the pregnancy, yes she did sin in having an abortion.
And no, this isnt the unforgivable sin, so she isnt doomed to hell and torment over it.

My guess is that if your friend is a caring type of person that eventually the abortion may cause some emotional distress as it does with many women who get them once they realize what theyve really chose to do which is end the life of their own living child.

I wouldnt worry about her going to hell over having the abortion, if she repents and is a born again believer she doesnt have to worry about that eventuality so much as any emotional torment over taking the life of her baby she may face.

 

[HuntingMan]

Personally, I believe the only case for abortion now is if the mother's life is in danger.

Well what do you know....we do actually seem to agree on something every now and then

 

[jellybean99]

Selfish considerations and the Christian walk are mutually exclusive. If you're so morally depraved that you're willing to murder someone else to make your life easier, any thoughts you have about God and damnation are selfish.

Cain's lament is the best you can do.

 

[Tissue]

I don't know how responsible it is to take the poetry of the Psalms as a literal definition of the beginning of life.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't know how responsible it is to take the poetry of the Psalms as a literal definition of the beginning of life.

Hmmm, Poetry doesn't define anything literally true or real??

And read it... what could it POSSIBLY be referring to in such definition of the beginning of life?
After all, prophecy of Jesus Christ is found in the Psalms as well as other literal facts we know from King David thru song/poetry.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

This is a stated fact in the passage; God is all knowing - knowing what we say before we say it.

To refuse to accept what is obvious by definition as fact in a verse is really just to deny the obvious when we read. We interpret fictional writing and news stories with more care and honesty.

 

[Tissue]

To refuse to accept what is obvious by definition as fact in a verse is really just to deny the obvious when we read. We interpret fictional writing and news stories with more care and honesty.

With terminology such as "obvious by definition as fact", I'm quite certain an argument with you will go nowhere. Nevertheless...

The verse agrees with your conception of God, but what about others? I haven't the time right now to look up specifics, but let's talk about God telling Abraham his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Strictly, this simply is not true. There is no need for Abraham to number the stars; it is figurative, and clearly so.

The Psalm is more ambiguous. As life is something we have scientifically defined separate from God (which sounds horrific to most, yet makes a degree of sense when one considers the matter), it is important that we thoroughly understand the ethical implications of the matter. God's Word does not definitively state when life is begun from a medical standpoint, nor does it state when life ENDS. Such scientific inquiries are not the Bible's main topic.

 

[Ave Maria]

No, your friend will not suffer in Hell for eternity (or at all for that matter) for having an abortion. The Bible doesn't even mention abortion. And yes, abortion did exist back then.

 

[Nadiine]

No, your friend will not suffer in Hell for eternity (or at all for that matter) for having an abortion. The Bible doesn't even mention abortion. And yes, abortion did exist back then.

yes it does mention murder - directly. Life is life.

You also cannot KNOW (ie judge) the future fate of her (someone you don't even know), that is for God to know and judge and Him alone.

 

[Nadiine]

With terminology such as "obvious by definition as fact", I'm quite certain an argument with you will go nowhere. Nevertheless...

The verse agrees with your conception of God, but what about others? I haven't the time right now to look up specifics, but let's talk about God telling Abraham his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Strictly, this simply is not true. There is no need for Abraham to number the stars; it is figurative, and clearly so.

The Psalm is more ambiguous. As life is something we have scientifically defined separate from God (which sounds horrific to most, yet makes a degree of sense when one considers the matter), it is important that we thoroughly understand the ethical implications of the matter. God's Word does not definitively state when life is begun from a medical standpoint, nor does it state when life ENDS. Such scientific inquiries are not the Bible's main topic.

Let me think.... isn't it Clinton that had us define what "is" actually IS??
Same premise.

This is a tactic Satan used in the garden "hath God said?"....
Did God REALLY say that?? The more you examine and dissect, the further away you veer from the statement.

What's sad is that in people's so called "quest" for knowledge, they're dissecting the Bible to a literal DEATH of all meaning. Missing the entire forest for 1 tree that blocks their view.

You take everything collectively into it's proper context. But since so many today choose to be self taught instead of learning under the Teachers God appoints His people, individuals with NO education in scripture are randomly redefining the Bible.

I'll share what Peter has to say about the danger of this:
2 Pet. 3
..just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

People's distortion and twisting of scripture doesn't make what they claim TRUE in reality. Go ahead and declare homosexuality isn't sin... it won't change God's moral command that it's sin - and the penalty for living in sin will be carried out no matter what anyone says to the contrary.

Go ahead & declare that abortion isn't murder... God's word clearly says it's murder thru several passages - taking human life.

God's word stands forever - our false beliefs have no standing; they are not truth. God judges based on truth, not deception.

 

[Ave Maria]

yes it does mention murder - directly. Life is life.

You also cannot KNOW (ie judge) the future fate of her (someone you don't even know), that is for God to know and judge and Him alone.

I do not believe that abortion is murder. It all depends on when the fetus gets its soul and therefore becomes a person. Please see these articles:

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Fetus.pdf

It is my opinion that the fetus does not become a person with a soul until it has breathed its first breath of life. Do you recall how God breathed the breath of life in to Adam in the Genesis creation story? He was not a person until he had the breath of life in him. He was nothing more than dust until he breathed.

And you are right that I cannot know the future of a person's soul. However, I can know that Hell does not exist and if it does exist, it is only a place for the most wicked and even they will not suffer there eternally because that would make God an unjust God. But, this is not the thread for a discussion on Hell. If you wish to discuss Hell, please start a new thread and I may very well drop in.

 

[Nadiine]

I do not believe that abortion is murder. It all depends on when the fetus gets its soul and therefore becomes a person. Please see these articles:

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Fetus.pdf

It is my opinion that the fetus does not become a person with a soul until it has breathed its first breath of life. Do you recall how God breathed the breath of life in to Adam in the Genesis creation story? He was not a person until he had the breath of life in him. He was nothing more than dust until he breathed.

And you are right that I cannot know the future of a person's soul. However, I can know that Hell does not exist and if it does exist, it is only a place for the most wicked and even they will not suffer there eternally because that would make God an unjust God. But, this is not the thread for a discussion on Hell. If you wish to discuss Hell, please start a new thread and I may very well drop in.

And you KNOW God hasn't provided a soul at the time of conception?

How do you go about proving that when Psalms directly states that God knows & has "knitted"/formed them in the womb??

Look I'm not going to fight with you about abortion -
you cannot hope to prove when God installs a soul, and since you do not know, you cannot make any emphatic statements of when it is or isn't life yet.

& that doesn't even come CLOSE to helping you where early, mid or late term abortions are performed.
We have PLENTY of pictures of formed fetuses and even partial birth abortion - this is a ploy so that women can continue having sex outside wedlock and conveniently get rid of their consequences.

THE FORNICATION THEY ENGAGED IS WAS THE FIRST SIN -(stats show the majority of all abortion is to unmarried females and not for medical necessity) they only compound it with another to get rid of the result of it.