just becuz you don't believe in heaven doesn't mean heaven doesn't exist or God's morals. If I said I didn't believe in trucks that doesn't mean they don't exist
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Abortion
- Thread starter HOTTEST DIGGEDY DOG EVER
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well just becuz someone doesn't believe that air exists doesn't mean that air doesn't exist, just like heaven, the air you breathe can't be seen.
sorry hun, hate to break it to you
sorry hun, hate to break it to you
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J
Jet Black
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HOTTEST DIGGEDY DOG EVER said:
you will find that air is empirically measurable using lots of tests.
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Truncate said:
Ok. You win. Let's agree here. Abortion should be fully lawful in cases of rape, incest, and probable loss of mothers' life). I'm good with that. Personally, I believe that abortion is wrong 100% of the time but as a law, I can live with these few agregious exceptions. I don't like to compromise but incest and loss of mother's life sound compelling to me.
Now here is the problem. I think that the exceptions that you mentioned are smoke screen. Are you willing to accept this compromise? I contend that abortion enthusiasts use exceptions like these to make it appear that they are trying to be compassionate. How many abortion enthusiasts out there are willing to accept this obvious "win"?
Of course, I am not empowered to negotiate on behalf of all pro-lifers but I think I'm on safe ground knowing that most of the pro-abortion group will accept nothing short of total abortion on demand, for any reason until the baby sees the light of day.
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stillsmallvoice
The Narn rule!
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Hi all!
I (an orthodox Jew) quote from a book I have on the (orthodox!) Jewish approach to various medical issues by Rabbi Dr. J. David Bleich:
"Judaism regards the killing of an unborn child to be a serious moral offense. An abortion may be performed only for the gravest of reasons, and even then, only subsequent to consultation with a competent [orthodox] rabbinic authority...The life of the mother takes precedence over that of the unborn child. Thus, when 'hard travail' of labor endangers the life of the mother, an embryotomy may be performed in order to save her...The fetus' right to life is subordinate to that of the mother, and hence the life of the unborn fetus may be sacrificed in order to save her...The performance of an abortion may be warranted for purposes of preserving maternal health as well as maternal life. No [orthodox rabbinic] authority permits an abortion which is non-therapeutic in nature. There are early rabbinic authorities who expressly declare that ritual laws such as Sabbath observance and fasting on Yom Kippur are suspended in order to preserve the life of the fetus. Suspension of such significant religious observances is clearly incompatible with indiscriminate license to destroy fetal life. Both the argument that a prospective mother may seek an abortion for any reason because denial of this right would interfere with her 'right to privacy' as well as the argument that the decision to abort is entirely a matter between a woman and her physician must be rejected as incompatible with Jewish teaching...Judaism teaches that man does not enjoy unrestricted proprietary rights with regard to his own body, much less so with regard to the body of an unborn child...The Talmud teaches that embryo is endowed with a soul at conception. Moreover, the Sages taught: 'There are 3 partners in the generation of man - the father, the mother and God.' Accordingly, a decision to terminate pregnancy is not one which is within the exclusive domain of the mother...It is well established that the quality of life to be anticipated if the fetus is carried to term is not, in itself, a sufficient reason for the performance of an abortion...Physical or mental abnormalities do not affect the human status of the individual or his right to life...Most authorities rule that termination of pregnancy resulting from rape is not permissible. However, the immediate post-coital contraceptive measures undertaken prior to fertilization of the ovum present a different but complex Jewish-law question. Immediate removal of the sperm by means of a suction device...would be warranted."
Thus, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism absolutely rejects abortion as a means of birth control. I certainly object to government funding for abortions that are non-therapeutic in nature.
However, we would completely reject vigilante violence against doctors, nurses, etc. who are involved in abortions (as well as inciting to violence against them) & to bombing clinics. Opposition to non-therapeutic abortions must be carried out within the bounds of the law.
Questions?
Be well!
ssv
I (an orthodox Jew) quote from a book I have on the (orthodox!) Jewish approach to various medical issues by Rabbi Dr. J. David Bleich:
"Judaism regards the killing of an unborn child to be a serious moral offense. An abortion may be performed only for the gravest of reasons, and even then, only subsequent to consultation with a competent [orthodox] rabbinic authority...The life of the mother takes precedence over that of the unborn child. Thus, when 'hard travail' of labor endangers the life of the mother, an embryotomy may be performed in order to save her...The fetus' right to life is subordinate to that of the mother, and hence the life of the unborn fetus may be sacrificed in order to save her...The performance of an abortion may be warranted for purposes of preserving maternal health as well as maternal life. No [orthodox rabbinic] authority permits an abortion which is non-therapeutic in nature. There are early rabbinic authorities who expressly declare that ritual laws such as Sabbath observance and fasting on Yom Kippur are suspended in order to preserve the life of the fetus. Suspension of such significant religious observances is clearly incompatible with indiscriminate license to destroy fetal life. Both the argument that a prospective mother may seek an abortion for any reason because denial of this right would interfere with her 'right to privacy' as well as the argument that the decision to abort is entirely a matter between a woman and her physician must be rejected as incompatible with Jewish teaching...Judaism teaches that man does not enjoy unrestricted proprietary rights with regard to his own body, much less so with regard to the body of an unborn child...The Talmud teaches that embryo is endowed with a soul at conception. Moreover, the Sages taught: 'There are 3 partners in the generation of man - the father, the mother and God.' Accordingly, a decision to terminate pregnancy is not one which is within the exclusive domain of the mother...It is well established that the quality of life to be anticipated if the fetus is carried to term is not, in itself, a sufficient reason for the performance of an abortion...Physical or mental abnormalities do not affect the human status of the individual or his right to life...Most authorities rule that termination of pregnancy resulting from rape is not permissible. However, the immediate post-coital contraceptive measures undertaken prior to fertilization of the ovum present a different but complex Jewish-law question. Immediate removal of the sperm by means of a suction device...would be warranted."
Thus, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism absolutely rejects abortion as a means of birth control. I certainly object to government funding for abortions that are non-therapeutic in nature.
However, we would completely reject vigilante violence against doctors, nurses, etc. who are involved in abortions (as well as inciting to violence against them) & to bombing clinics. Opposition to non-therapeutic abortions must be carried out within the bounds of the law.
Questions?
Be well!
ssv
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this is ridiculous, the bible in itself is antifeminist. I feel the only reason people get so mad about abortion is really that christian crazies want more babies to make into christian drones.
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J
Jet Black
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fish3 said:
if yo uare going to make claims like that, you will need to provide evidence of pro-choice people who think that abortion at 8 3/4 months is ok.
I would be impressed if you even found one, never mind a substantial percentage.
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Jet Black said:
Even though I qualified my statement in the previous sentence (not shown) I went back and found some evidence. Though I don't always agree with your positions, you are among the better posters on this forum so I regard your remarks as worth thinking about.
Not many at 8+ months go through with it but some are reported with almost every abortion web search that I ran. No real stats - just a bunch of individual (anicdodal) case stories. A lot of 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions (22 weeks or greater)though. In the site below, Kansas performed 182 last year and all of them were judged to be "viable" by the abortionist. Of the 182, one (1) was conducted for medical, health/life of the mother reasons.
The following elected officials are among those who have proposed legislation completely eliminating term length limits for even modest "mental health" reasons. This includes even final hour abortions.
http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/99itop1.pdf
Reps. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) and Jim Greenwood (R-Pa.)Senator Tom Daschle (D-SD) and Richard Durbin (D-Il.) - Numerous others including a fair share of Republicans.
I never meant to imply that a lot of women would want ultra-late term abortions but every (100% , no exceptions) piece of legislation proposed or passed that seeks to put a limit on late term or partial birth abortions has been opposed by the pro abortion groups. (NOW, NARL, Ms etc) All of their web sites were pretty clear about that.
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Heh, human life means nothing more than an animals life...we all need to get over that...we are animals too!Vylo said:
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Vylo
Stick with the King!
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Stupid? to value your own species more than others? I think you forget that it is survival of the fittest in this world, and those who stick together will survive.
So pardon me for being "stupid" and not treating human beings like insects. I'll remember to swat you the next time you get in my way.
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[mod hat on]
This thread has gone on for 175 posts, and is now turning into a flamefest. It's being closed.
[mod hat off]
This thread has gone on for 175 posts, and is now turning into a flamefest. It's being closed.
[mod hat off]
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