Abortion

[Vylo]

I am having trouble understanding what exactly the process is that you are describing as you seem to be saying too different things.

Before it seemed to me that you said that many of the implanted eggs to not survive. If the eggs fail to grow naturally that has nothing to do with abortion.

Later you are saying that doctors discard some of these eggs. If it is due to low viability, they stand little to no chance of becoming a human so while I'm a bit shaky on that, I can understand its purpose. Discarding other eggs seems wasteful, and would serve no purpse.

In either case it is not the implantation I would have a problem with, but in the second case I would have a problem with the doctors discarding viable eggs.

 

[Knight]

I am having trouble understanding what exactly the process is that you are describing as you seem to be saying too different things.

Before it seemed to me that you said that many of the implanted eggs to not survive. If the eggs fail to grow naturally that has nothing to do with abortion.

Later you are saying that doctors discard some of these eggs. If it is due to low viability, they stand little to no chance of becoming a human so while I'm a bit shaky on that, I can understand its purpose. Discarding other eggs seems wasteful, and would serve no purpse.

In either case it is not the implantation I would have a problem with, but in the second case I would have a problem with the doctors discarding viable eggs.

Excellent point. That is also the contention of Christian Pro-Lifers.

 

[tcampen]

I think I should clarify. Doctors pick the BEST fertilized eggs. They may all be viable, just some look like they are developing a little better than others. So the Doctor implants only those that look like they have the best shot. Technically, any of them may be fine.

So the doctor picks 4 of the 8 or 10 fertilized eggs, and implants them in the woman, knowing most of the four will not survive. It is because of the low odds that more than one egg is implanted - its hedging your bet, so to speak. In most cases, a couple is pretty lucky if they get one child out of these 8 or 10 fertilized eggs. Agian, to increase the odds, and minimize the impact of the procedure, many eggs get ferilized knowing that it'll be lucky if one makes it.

This is how invitro fertilization works. Thus, if you give these newly fertilized eggs the same status as a born person, you must be against the procedure completely, since it is known nearly all the fertilized eggs will not survive.

 

[Vylo]

you must be against the procedure completely, since it is known nearly all the fertilized eggs will not survive

I believe the doctors should reconsider their selection process, but once the eggs are implanted, it is up to nature. We cannot help it if our bodies give us bad odds of successful implantation. We can only try to improve our technology. Again natural causes are not abortion.

 

[EvolvEarth]

Should a woman have the right to abort a fetus that would later have trisomy 21, trisomy 18, or trisomy 13? They usually die early in their life, t-18 and 13 tend to die before they hit one. Should the mother take care of these deformed child until they die, or is she allowed to abort them in your eyes? What if she found out their her child would have a severe form of huntington's disease? What if she found out their her future child would have Tay-Sachs? Is it immoral to abort these fetuses because they'll have these horrible diseases that show to mercy, and bring out a lot of suffering from child to family?

 

[Vylo]

In the event of severe physical problems for child, I find it acceptable to abort the child, rather then bring them into the world only to have them suffer intensly for a couple months before facing an agonizing death. One of my coworkers actually had their wife give birth to a child who died in such a manner. They wished the child had never been born, so as to have sparred it the sufferring it endured.

 

[EvolvEarth]

Vylo, but would that be okay with God? What about doctor-assisted suicide for those that are suffering but can still live? Does God frown upon those taking the lives of others while the others could die of natural causes instead?

 

[Jet Black]

In either case it is not the implantation I would have a problem with, but in the second case I would have a problem with the doctors discarding viable eggs.

well just leave them on a shelf out of direct sunlight, with plenty food, and if they want to become a fully formed human, they can do. no-one is stopping them.

 

[Vylo]

Vylo, but would that be okay with God? What about doctor-assisted suicide for those that are suffering but can still live? Does God frown upon those taking the lives of others while the others could die of natural causes instead?

That is none of my concern, I don't believe a god exists.

well just leave them on a shelf out of direct sunlight, with plenty food, and if they want to become a fully formed human, they can do. no-one is stopping them

That is negligence, not nature.

 

[Jet Black]

It is nature. nature will kill it because it cannot survive outside a woman.

despire being facetious, I had a point to make. those cells were fertilised through an unnatural process, they are inserted into a woman through an unnatural process. so can one really draw the distinction when it comes to their disposal? those cells are in an environment where they cannot survive. from this we can extract two issues
1) if we use an unnatural process to keep them alive (for example cryogenic storage) we can keep them alive for eternity unless someone pulls the plug out by accident... is this sufficient? 2) are we really obliged to give this life in potentia a chance, because as it currently exists, it does not have a chance.

 

[Vylo]

Are you saying then, that if we leave a newborn baby alone and it dies from exposure that it is nature, and not negligence?

 

[tcampen]

Vylo, but would that be okay with God? What about doctor-assisted suicide for those that are suffering but can still live? Does God frown upon those taking the lives of others while the others could die of natural causes instead?

I can't imagine a just and caring God wanting me to remain alive another 3 weeks in absolute horrific pain if I can knowingly and intellegently want to end my life peacefully. I believe it is Humans who have difficulty understanding this concept. Some can get so overwhelmed by the slippery slope argument that they forget the the plight of the individual. Under the appropriate circumstances, I can't see why a reasonable God would oppose death with dignity for the terminally ill.

 

[tcampen]

I can't believe I'm having so much difficulting making my question understandable! Let me try one last time...

With the invitro procedure, the couple and the doctor are responsible for fertilizing 8 to 10 eggs at a time with the full knowledge that only one will survive. Perhaps only half will even be implanted, and the rest discarded due to the lower chance of viability. In other words, this process intentionally brings about many concieved individual beings, knowing that most will die or be destroyed (while still newly fertilized eggs).

If abortion at any stage of the pregnancy, even within a few days of conception, is wrong - why isn't invitro fertilization equally wrong?

 

[nyj]

If abortion at any stage of the pregnancy, even within a few days of conception, is wrong - why isn't invitro fertilization equally wrong?

That's part of the reason why the Catholic Church doesn't condone in vitro fertilization either.

 

[Vylo]

That is interesting tcampen. I believe it is because the egg has not yet implanted itself in the mother. Once implanted or impregnated, to tamper with this is a direct attack on a human entity.

Again we cannot help our bodies shortcoming, except to try to improve technology. If 10 eggs must be used to get 1 fetus, so be it. But I personally would use all of them to attempt an implant, I would not discard any.

 

[tcampen]

That is interesting tcampen. I believe it is because the egg has not yet implanted itself in the mother. Once implanted or impregnated, to tamper with this is a direct attack on a human entity.

Again we cannot help our bodies shortcoming, except to try to improve technology. If 10 eggs must be used to get 1 fetus, so be it. But I personally would use all of them to attempt an implant, I would not discard any.

1. How is a fertilized egg not implanted any different from one that is?

2. You can't implant them all, due to the off chance they all take hold. (This is how you get the sextuplets and such that are so much more common today than 25 years ago.)

 

[Vylo]

1. How is a fertilized egg not implanted any different from one that is?

An implanted one is now in the position to develop in a natural manner.

2. You can't implant them all, due to the off chance they all take hold. (This is how you get the sextuplets and such that are so much more common today than 25 years ago.)

You CAN implant them all, it just migh hurt later on , just kidding, I see your point there.

 

[KatebTheChaotic]

1.If indeed the baby is alive...why not count those 9 months as points toward the next birthday?

2.If children are innocent, they have a free ticket to "heaven", who is to say that gods intention is not for that child to be aborted (immediately shooting it on up to heaven) and its purpose was to start the woman in a life of making progressive decisions?

3.all the passages in the bible talking about god being with someone in the womb are referring to prophets...this doesnt mean that hes there with ALL of us...just the special ones.

4.Is this a valid question?

lol the last one i was just kidding..
-just my 2 cents-

 

[Vylo]

1.If indeed the baby is alive...why not count those 9 months as points toward the next birthday?

Um, because they are unborn Think about the word Birthday

2.If children are innocent, they have a free ticket to "heaven", who is to say that gods intention is not for that child to be aborted (immediately shooting it on up to heaven) and its purpose was to start the woman in a life of making progressive decisions?

I don't believe in a heaven so this one goes right out the door for me.

3.all the passages in the bible talking about god being with someone in the womb are referring to prophets...this doesnt mean that hes there with ALL of us...just the special ones.

see #2

 

[KatebTheChaotic]

about number 1
I JUST REALLY WANNA BE 17 so i can drive LOL