abortion

[Gusoceros]

I'm all for accountability after a pregnancy occurs... but I say again, whats wrong with accepting people are going to have sex, and providing them the means to avoid unwanted pregnancies AND allow them to have sex?

Simple enough question, I'd have thought. I'll continue to ask it as long as you continue to dodge it.

A couple things:

1) NOTHING I have said insinuates, implies, or directly says, that people will be banned from having sex, or wont be allowed to have sex.

2) NOTHING I have said insinuates, implies, or directly says that I believe people are going to STOP having sex.

3) NOTHING I have said insinuates, implies, or directly says that I believe people will not or should not use contraception.

4) My point addresses moral training- which you seem to be avoiding- please address this point. I have already gone into detail on what I mean by this.

5) Im glad we agree, that accountability at the point of pregnancy is something that should be enforced.

G

 

[ScottBot]

The problem with "black and white decisions"... is that there is so much grey area in the matter...

Further, I don't think its a matter of when the foetus becomes a life... but more when it is considered life in its own right... and then, when it may be considered a sentient person...

Now, work with me here...

We KNOW, from experience, that even in jurisdictions where abortion is illegal, they still continue to happen, right? So legislating against the practice doesn't make them stop, although it DOES increase the risk of injury and death to the mother, and in the case of failed attempts, virtually guarantees the likelihood of birth defects...

But I digress...

It seems to ME... that the only real way to reduce abortion rates, is to stop unwanted pregnancies. Do you have a workable suggestion to do this?

Education.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

My point addresses moral training- which you seem to be avoiding- please address this point. I have already gone into detail on what I mean by this.

Well... I understand about teaching accountability and self reliance... I think thats a GOOD idea... and that an appropriately accountable and self reliant person, who is fully aware of the relevant facts, will procure and use contraception if he/she intends to have sex, thus avoiding the whole abortion issue in the first place. However, I can't help but assume (you certainy havn't said otherwise) that when you say "teach people morality"... you mean "teach them MY version of morality"... which means they won't have pre-marital sex. If I'm mistaken in this, please correct me.

I'd also like to point out, again, that unplanned pregnancy is not the sole domain of high school drop outs... even married people or people in long term relationships, find themselves pregnant with unwanted children

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Education.

Care to, maybe, give, I don't know... details?

 

[ScottBot]

Care to, maybe, give, I don't know... details?

If I had better details, I wouldn't be working as a cruddy project manager for the goverment....

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If I had better details, I wouldn't be working as a cruddy project manager for the goverment....

Well, have a think. I'm interested to hear what meaningful, constructive methods people come up with to lower abortion rates

 

[ScottBot]

Well, have a think. I'm interested to hear what meaningful, constructive methods people come up with to lower abortion rates

Well, I think for one we need to cut through the excrement and put out the truth of what an abortion does. I hate the language that is used "ending a pregnancy" "having a procedure", and that clinics refuse to show the mother the ultrasound of her baby.

Truth will lower abortion rates, which means advocated for such need to stop lying about it and using fanciful, deceptive terms to describe it. But, you're right, I sould elucide my idea before throwing unarticulated words out there to make an (apparently) lame point.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

and that clinics refuse to show the mother the ultrasound of her baby

They do? Do many women who intend to have an abortion WANT to see an ultrasound of the baby?

I think by the time a woman is pregnant with an unwanted child... its too late. Much better to try to stop her getting pregnant in the first place.

Again, education would help.

 

[ScottBot]

They do? Do many women who intend to have an abortion WANT to see an ultrasound of the baby?

I think by the time a woman is pregnant with an unwanted child... its too late. Much better to try to stop her getting pregnant in the first place.

Again, education would help.

Possible, I also think that alot of women don't really know what they want when they go into a clinic and are there because of outside pressure, especially if they are younger.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Possible, I also think that alot of women don't really know what they want when they go into a clinic and are there because of outside pressure, especially if they are younger.

There is an awful lot of empirical research done to suggest this isn't the case... and there are safety steps all the way through the procedure... women are asked repeatedly if a termination is what they want, and if they are recieving pressure to go through with it...

Its not like people sort of wander in to see what its all about and have an abortion without anyone telling them what's going on... the "medically informed consent" provisions are pretty good for this

 

[ScottBot]

There is an awful lot of empirical research done to suggest this isn't the case... and there are safety steps all the way through the procedure... women are asked repeatedly if a termination is what they want, and if they are recieving pressure to go through with it...

Its not like people sort of wander in to see what its all about and have an abortion without anyone telling them what's going on... the "medically informed consent" provisions are pretty good for this

Well I know that, let's not be silly. You should look at Alan Keyes and what he has been doing to expose what happens in some of these clinics. If anyone can claim that these younger girls are not being pressured or mislead through the process, they are deceiving themselves. The point being, the abortion industry isn't exactly forthcoming when it comes to providing truthful, accurate information.

 

[ContentInHim]

There is an awful lot of empirical research done to suggest this isn't the case... and there are safety steps all the way through the procedure... women are asked repeatedly if a termination is what they want, and if they are recieving pressure to go through with it...

Its not like people sort of wander in to see what its all about and have an abortion without anyone telling them what's going on... the "medically informed consent" provisions are pretty good for this

I don't know what state you live in, but it's not like this in Virginia. You walk in the door, pay your money, have the procedure, are instructed to "thank the doctor" and go home.

 

[Gusoceros]

However, I can't help but assume (you certainy havn't said otherwise) that when you say "teach people morality"... you mean "teach them MY version of morality"... which means they won't have pre-marital sex. If I'm mistaken in this, please correct me.

So lets get to the point we have been skirting here- are you saying that premarital sex should not be discouraged with moral education?

 

[Ave Maria]

Does that mean that murder or theft is a necessary evil? The fundamental question being: Is a fetus life from the moment of conception. Most scientist agree with that assumption. If it is, then abortion is murder. If a fetus is not life at conception, then when does it become life? Is it when the baby is born? There are advocates who believe that it is okay to allow children who are born as a result of a botched abortion to die. It is called "post birth abortion". The legislature need to, once and for all, take this out of the courts and make some black and white concrete decision on this matter.

I have since changed my opinion on abortion.

 

[Gusoceros]

I have since changed my opinion on abortion.

Congratulations to you! What was it he said that seemed to make a difference for you?

It is a strong position that is able to freely and objectively consider positions, and change when there is a need. Change requires strength.

G

 

[EnemyPartyII]

So lets get to the point we have been skirting here- are you saying that premarital sex should not be discouraged with moral education?

Well... not if premarital sex is considered a moral activity for the person whom you wish to educate, then no.

Again, when you say "educate people moral value"... I can't see how you mean anything but "teach people MY moral values"...

And I don't think that is appropriate.

Indeed, what I think IS appropriate in school environments (because I get the distinct impression you are labouring under the idea that most abortions occur in unmarried high school age girls)... is that the school has NO place to be teaching any sort of morality... thats the job of parents. The school has a duty to teach information, and opinion about information, as long as it is disseminated as such... but has no place telling people what is right and wrong.

So, am I correct in assuming that you think at some point in a sex education lecture, the teacher should say "if you have sex before you are married, you are commiting an evil act"...or words to that effect through the course of the class?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I don't know what state you live in, but it's not like this in Virginia. You walk in the door, pay your money, have the procedure, are instructed to "thank the doctor" and go home.

I doubt its that simple at all. Any doctor who performs ANY procedure, no matter how basic, is just asking for a law suit if he doesn't have a signed document confirming the patient's informed consent.

 

[allhart]

Does that mean that murder or theft is a necessary evil? The fundamental question being: Is a fetus life from the moment of conception. Most scientist agree with that assumption. If it is, then abortion is murder. If a fetus is not life at conception, then when does it become life? Is it when the baby is born? There are advocates who believe that it is okay to allow children who are born as a result of a botched abortion to die. It is called "post birth abortion". The legislature need to, once and for all, take this out of the courts and make some black and white concrete decision on this matter.

Exodus21:22-25

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Exodus21:22-25

Is irrelevant in a secular law court

 

[Ave Maria]

Congratulations to you! What was it he said that seemed to make a difference for you?

It is a strong position that is able to freely and objectively consider positions, and change when there is a need. Change requires strength.

G

It wasn't anything that anybody said. It was just that I realized that my position was wrong and so I changed it.