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Abortion

Windmill

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Whats the stance of all of you guys with abortion?

I'm still figuring out mine.

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]
This makes me think therefore, that a person is not a person until they have breath in their bodies. Therefore, I suppose that until a baby can breath on its own, its therefore merely just a body- so you would be killing a person, you'd merely be rendering the body useless to have breath in it- but you wouldn't be destroying/taking away a life. Therefore, wouldn't abortion be okay, since you arn't killing anything?
 
O

OntheDL

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Windmill said:
Whats the stance of all of you guys with abortion?

I'm still figuring out mine.

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]
This makes me think therefore, that a person is not a person until they have breath in their bodies. Therefore, I suppose that until a baby can breath on its own, its therefore merely just a body- so you would be killing a person, you'd merely be rendering the body useless to have breath in it- but you wouldn't be destroying/taking away a life. Therefore, wouldn't abortion be okay, since you arn't killing anything?

I think the question is when do we consider the baby a real person. Full term, 6 months, 7 months...?

At 10-12 weeks, the baby is got the heartbeat to pump oxygen in the blood. The baby is breathing through the cord .

Everytime I look at my daughter, now 3 year old. I know she was a miracle that I'm just a steward to take care of her for God.

I can't think of a good reason to end a life that we did not give. In the case of rape, I think the baby can be put up for adoption. Unless it's life threatening, we don't have to make that kind of decision.
 
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Windmill

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Yeah, I sorta agree.

Okay, now comes the question: Does a person become a living soul when they can breath by themselves, or when air is pumped through them? Because, the baby in question would die if thebreathing cord is taken away. They arn't really a life yet, are they?
 
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Goya

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OntheDL said:
At 10-12 weeks, the baby is got the heartbeat to pump oxygen in the blood. The baby is breathing through the cord .

I agree with OntheDL. The baby has already acquired oxygen in its unformed body. But also I hae read this passage in the bible also.
Do not eat anything that has died a natural death. You may give it to a foreigner living among you, or you may sell it to a foreigner. But do not eat it yourselves, for you are set apart as holy to the LORD your God."Do not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.
Deu 14:21

I know I know... we are not animals to boil each other up and consume human flesh. But I believe that if God commanded us not consume the goat that is in the mother's milk, i think that a baby that is already breathing oxygen shouldn't be aborted.
 
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Sophia7

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The Bible doesn't give us a scientific explanation of when life begins, but the Bible writers clearly had a conception (please excuse the pun) of life before birth. I am quoting below a few texts for you to consider. Notice that many of them talk about being created in the womb. If you are relating the beginning of life to the creation of Adam, remember that Adam was created as an adult and never spent time in the womb, whereas our creation begins with a tiny fertilized egg. I don't believe that the fact that God breathed life into Adam should be extrapolated to mean that life begins only when a baby can breathe on its own. Unborn babies still have the breath of life from God even though they do not literally breathe on their own; their breath comes through their mothers.

Anyway, that would not be clearcut either. People would still disagree on whether that meant when the baby's lungs are fully developed or when the baby is actually born and takes its first draft of real air. Would a viable premature baby who can't breathe on its own yet but has to be given artificial respiration actually be alive, or could we kill it?


JOB 31:15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

PS 22:9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
PS 22:10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

ISA 44:2 This is what the LORD says--
he who made you, who formed you in the womb,
and who will help you:
Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant,
Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

ISA 44:24 "This is what the LORD says--
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:

ISA 49:5 And now the LORD says--
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength--

JER 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

If God knows us even before He forms us in the womb, how can anyone presume to have the right to thwart His plans for us?

JER 20:13 Sing to the LORD!
Give praise to the LORD!
He rescues the life of the needy
from the hands of the wicked.
JER 20:14 Cursed be the day I was born!
May the day my mother bore me not be blessed!
JER 20:15 Cursed be the man who brought my father the news,
who made him very glad, saying,
"A child is born to you--a son!"
JER 20:16 May that man be like the towns
the LORD overthrew without pity.
May he hear wailing in the morning,
a battle cry at noon.
JER 20:17 For he did not kill me in the womb,
with my mother as my grave,

her womb enlarged forever.
JER 20:18 Why did I ever come out of the womb
to see trouble and sorrow
and to end my days in shame?

This is kind of a poetic lament, but it shows that Jeremiah had the idea that God could have killed him in the womb.

HOS 12:2 The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
HOS 12:3 In the womb he grasped his brother's heel;
as a man he struggled with God.

LK 1:39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

What I see consistently throughout these verses is that God guides us and is involved in our lives not only from birth but even in the womb, when He first creates us, and He has plans for our us even before He makes us, even before our parents know about us.

Therefore, I believe that life begins at conception and that to intentionally destroy that life is murder. Any other definitions of when life begins--when the egg implants, when the heart starts beating, at three months or six months, when the fetus is viable, at birth--seem like rationalizations to justify something unjustifiable.






 
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Windmill

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Interesting.
I'm supposing then, that the idea that we shouldn't use protection (I know the catholics follow this, not sure what other denominations do though) would therefore not work, because at that stage, the baby is not in the womb yet, right?
 
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Sophia7

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Windmill said:
Interesting.
I'm supposing then, that the idea that we shouldn't use protection (I know the catholics follow this, not sure what other denominations do though) would therefore not work, because at that stage, the baby is not in the womb yet, right?

There was a lengthy debate on this in GT a while ago. What I learned is that Catholics believe that taking artificial measures (birth control, sterilization, withdrawal, etc.) to prevent pregnancy is a grievous sin, not because they think that all contraception is abortion (since, as you said, the baby is not yet in the womb) but because they think that engaging in marital intimacy without the possibility of pregnancy turns their spouse into a sex object and renders them guilty of lust. They also think that having sex only for pleasure denies God's primary purpose (in their view) for instituing sex--procreation. Interestingly, they have no problem with natural family planning methods or abstinence (even in marriage).

I don't think that many other churches anymore have quite as strict a view as Catholics although there are some. Also, some Christians who use contraception are against hormonal methods for health reasons or against certain other methods that possibly have abortifacent effects. And, of course, some Christians don't see anything wrong with abortion at all. The issue is very complicated and divisive.

Personally, I do not have a moral problem with using birth control (although I do think that some methods carry health risks, especially long term) because I believe that God has given us some say in planning our families and deciding when we are ready to have children. However, I am against doing anything that would cause the destruction of a fertilized egg or an unborn baby at any stage of pregnancy.

Here are a couple of links to the Adventist Church's official position statements on contraception and abortion:
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main_stat44.html
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html

I am more conservative on this issue even than many other Adventists. I believe that it would be wrong to kill an unborn baby even in the case of rape. The baby is innocent and does not deserve to die; it could be given up for adoption instead. A threat to the life of the mother is perhaps less clear. Personally, I couldn't kill my unborn baby even if my life were at risk. I would do everything possible to ensure both of our safety, but if I had to choose, there would be only one option for me. I would have to give my baby the chance to live. Whether it would be wrong for someone else to make a a different choice in that situation is debatable.
 
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Windmill

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Yes, this subject became a matter for me, when this speaker who's big in the Australisia divison, Geoff Yaldon, came and stayed over here. He mentioned in a sermon that he felt abortion is wrong unless the girl/women has been raped.

Well, he was staying out our house, so in the car, I asked him a bit more about this- for me and my dad both agree with you, Sophia, that even in rape, keep the child.

However, thats interesting to know, I didn't realise that was the reasons for the catholics being anti birth control.
 
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Windmill said:
Whats the stance of all of you guys with abortion?

I'm still figuring out mine.

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]
This makes me think therefore, that a person is not a person until they have breath in their bodies. Therefore, I suppose that until a baby can breath on its own, its therefore merely just a body- so you would be killing a person, you'd merely be rendering the body useless to have breath in it- but you wouldn't be destroying/taking away a life. Therefore, wouldn't abortion be okay, since you arn't killing anything?

Firstly let me say that scripure has nothing to do with whether or not a human is alive in the womb. Secondly Windmill you should be asking what does God say about abortion, not SDA's or even yourself say. Really at the end of the day it does not matter what the SDA church or YOU thought about this matter but only God. So ask yourself is murder ok? If not then no.
 
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frankincense

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My baby was born pretty premature. Not at all near full term. She could not breath on her own. She was delivered by an emergency c-section and then a machine breathed for her at first. She wasn't any less of a soul. God watched over her and helped her through. :)
 
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Sophia7

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frankincense said:
My baby was born pretty premature. Not at all near full term. She could not breath on her own. She was delivered by an emergency c-section and then a machine breathed for her at first. She wasn't any less of a soul. God watched over her and helped her through. :)

I'm so happy to hear that she made it. :) Yes, I agree that she was just as much a person before she was born as she was after.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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I pretty much agree with the sentiment raised here, that is abortion shouldn't be used at all,unless it's to save the life of the mother. I believe abortion is the taking of a human life, and therefore murder. I make the exception for the endangerment of the mother's life.
 
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zhilan

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I had a friend who told me how she knew a lady who was raped and got pregnant from the rape and decided to keep the child. She said her child had the eyes and some other features of the man who raped her, but in seeing those characteristics in her child who she loved so much she was able to change something horrible and tragic into an experience of God's love and healing. The thought of her rapist's eyes was no longer haunting because they were now her child's eyes. I thought that was very beautiful.
 
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Windmill

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JasMate said:
Firstly let me say that scripure has nothing to do with whether or not a human is alive in the womb. Secondly Windmill you should be asking what does God say about abortion, not SDA's or even yourself say. Really at the end of the day it does not matter what the SDA church or YOU thought about this matter but only God. So ask yourself is murder ok? If not then no.
I am afraid I don't accept this.

1) Why wouldn't scripture have anything to do if the baby is alive in the womb or not? Why not? Please explain this to me. What is life? Well, that is up for debate, but if the bible explains what life is, then its going to be my counsel :|

2) I find this rather ironic. I am asking fellow SDA's for their biblical reasons.

Now, you're implying that I'm asking what does the seventh day adventist official stance say, then leave it at that.

Yet, I have specifically used a bible text to give my reasoning.

Now, I did not ask for the official SDA stance, I merely just asked for peoples opinions. People in this particular forum are very knowledgeable in the bible, hence, I would like their imput.

So, I am asking for Gods view. So, I once again, reject this statement. :|
 
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Windmill

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zhilan said:
I had a friend who told me how she knew a lady who was raped and got pregnant from the rape and decided to keep the child. She said her child had the eyes and some other features of the man who raped her, but in seeing those characteristics in her child who she loved so much she was able to change something horrible and tragic into an experience of God's love and healing. The thought of her rapist's eyes was no longer haunting because they were now her child's eyes. I thought that was very beautiful.
If I was raped, and the rapist eyes were now on my child of the rape, I don't know if I would keep it, I would probably have to adopt it out.
 
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