Abortion

[Kristine]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Yes, it is still wrong. Two women in this thread have reported near death, and are still alive. Abortion is wrong.

I didn't say near death, I said death.  No good will come out of a tubal pregnancy.  Medical science has not yet found a way to transplant the fetus without killing him/her in the process.

I don't think you guys understand.  There is nothing noble in dying needlessly.  In this case, your child either way is a lost causet.  Your baby will die.  But you don't need to.  If you neglect life-saving surgery because of your guilt over removing a child who already is a lost cause anyway, this is not much different than suicide. 

The hanging over a cliff scenario doesn't quite paint it accurately, since it's not a matter of 'which one will you choose?'  In a tubal pregnancy you WILL loose your child. Period.  The question is will you needlessly loose your own life (or in this case the life of your wife) in the process? 

If you're so pro-life that you don't want to see your unborn's life destroyed, why will you not respect your own life in the same way?

Finally, there is also evidence that death from the rupture of the tube is much more prolongued and painful for the fetus (not to mention the mother).  Since the child will die anyhow, is it not more humane to let her die with dignity and gentleness (a the same time saving her mother) than from massive trauma and bleeding? 

Kristine


PS.  Again, for clarity, I am NOT talking about cases when the mother's health is at risk; only ones where both more and child will most certainly both die if the pregnancy remains as is.

 

 

[DaveKerwin]

I may have misunderstood some of the posts in this thread.

For the women who have personally experienced this, please share what you decided to do, why you decided to do it, and what the outcome of it was. Thanks.

The other thing is this: How certain can a doctor really be that both will die? Doctors make mistakes, and God makes miracles. Obviously not in every case does a doctor make a mistake or God make a miracle, but these things do happen.

 

[Kristine]

Well we can obviously know the choice made by any woman in this forum who has experienced a tubal pregnancy and is alive to tell about it.

Doctors are certain because of how the unborn develops.  When the embryo implants in the tube, a blood-oxygen line is established.  You can't cut that off for any period of time when the fetus is so young, without the fetus going into shock (starving of oxygen) and dying.  And on the other hand, the fetus will die and cause internal bleeding in the woman if he/she continues to grow in the tube.

Here's a link might provide sidtes that will describe a little more technically why this is a medically impossible situation.
http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/ectopicpregnancy/

Kristine

 

 

[ZooMom]

As I said, I was already past the point where I could have made a decision either way. I didn't know I was pregnant beforehand, and the baby was already gone and I was hemorrhaging by the time we found out why I was in pain. A fallopian tube is so small that it's only a matter of a few weeks before an implanted fetus grows large enough to rupture the tube. Too early, in many cases, for a woman to even suspect that she was pregnant.

If it happened again, and I knew before the rupture occured...I would refuse to have the surgery. I would pray for a miracle, and if I didn't receive one, well...I wouldn't bleed to death before I could get to a hospital. My prior situation was so dangerous because I had waited with the pain over an entire weekend (I started having pains on a Friday afternoon.) before finally going in to see the doctor on Monday morning.

It's not a matter of being noble. It's a matter of respecting life. And not just respecting it, loving it as God would want us to.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

...or his children...

 

[Kristine]

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

...or his children...[/qote]

Yes. assuming you're laying your life down for your friend or child, not for a corpse for whom there is no hope.  Dying for one who is already dead is in vain. And when you knowingly do it, you are not showing respect to the life God has given you.  (By the time the woman starts to hemorrage, the fetus has died already) 

 

[ZooMom]

(By the time the woman starts to hemorrage, the fetus has died already)

I am very well aware of this. I did not refuse surgery at that point. I said that I would refuse it while the baby was still alive, holding out for that last hope. I would never take it upon myself to end the life of a child, even if it was 'inevitable' that the child would die anyway if I did nothing. No. Not even to spare myself.

 

[Kristine]

Just for the record, in case anyone is confused, I am VERY pro-life (in fact, Lord willing I soon hope to be raising my own suport amd working as a full time pro-life apologist.

The only reason I am pressing this point so much is that this kind of extremist thinking that doesn't even allow abortion of a child destined to die, in order to save the life of his mother; gives people reason to discredit the whole pro-life message as calloused, heartless and uncaring.  Try telling a woman that she is forced to die for her child who has no hope of living either way.  It does very single-focussed.

I do respect the solidity of your convictions, even though i believe you're taking them to an unecessary extreme (especially when being removed is more humane for the fetus than is the trauma of slow hemorage), but I couldn't force you to change your mind.  Legally, you do have the right to refuse life-saving medical help (JW's do it all the time).

Where I would object would be if you tried to insist that no woman had the right to surgically remove the child who could doom her along with himself.  Since it's not really a question of the child's interest anymore, to insist that all women should have to take the risk of hemorrage, just because you are willing to take that risk, is unkind and unfair.  If you're really pro-life, remember her life too -while the child is a lost cause, you can still save hers!


But ultimately, if you do object to life-saving abortions for everyone, here's what I would recommend:

Avoid the smoke-screen!  Most pro-aborts raise the 'hard issues' of rape, incest, and life of mother to draw sympathy from people for women facing these tough times, and would rather debate you on these questions in effort to show how heartless you are, than to talk about the real central question of abortion on demand.

Strategy: Ask them: "If I were to agree that you can have abortion for those cases you mentioned (which amount to 2-7% of abortions) would you fight with me to oppose the other 93% of convenience abortion-on demand?"

If they say no, you know what the real issue is, and that their appeal to hard cases is an attempt to change the topic and hide behind the sad nature of the cases they brought up. If they say yes, you've got someone who will work with you a long way, and with whom you can discuss why the fact that these unborn are human beings dictates how we treat them.

But please don't let conversation dwell on your demand that all women should die for a doomed child, just because you would.  Again, I respect your choice, but since it's not a matter of ending a child's life anymore, but rather of saving a woman's life, You'll make people a lot less likely to discredit your whole pro-life belief system that the unborn are human beings. 

For the sake of the unborn who can be saved, please be careful to first put forward the arguments most likely to change minds and save lives.

Kristine

 

[Phoebe]

Wow, Sandy. I too had emergency surgery on a Monday.
On Friday I thought I was just having a very painful cycle. On Monday, when I was bleeding through my "feminine protection," I knew something was horribly wrong. I began to think I was miscarrying. I was already under anesthesia and getting a laparoscopy when the doctors determined it was tubal. (I didn't know for sure that I was pregnant, but I had begun to suspect it.)
That is the worst pain I have ever been in. It was worse than appendicitis.

No, I wouldn't fault anyone for not waiting out a tubal pregnancy. God gave us doctors for a reason.

 

[ZooMom]

Try telling a woman that she is forced to die for her child who has no hope of living either way.

There is always hope. I would also like to see some statistics on women who have died as a result of ectopic hemmorhagging. Please leave out the ones who knew that they were bleeding and refused help. (Like JW's)

Legally, you do have the right to refuse life-saving medical help (JW's do it all the time).

I told you. I didn't refuse 'life-saving' medical help, and I wouldn't refuse it again. I *would* refuse to kill a baby that was still alive based on the presumption that 'it's just going to die anyway'.

Where I would object would be if you tried to insist that no woman had the right to surgically remove the child who could doom her along with himself.

Surgically remove? Let's be honest here. You mean 'kill', so why not say 'kill'? And can we dispense with the 'doom' already? Two people in this thread have reported waiting several *days* before seeking medical help, for the plain fact that we both simply didn't realize what was going on.

If you're really pro-life, remember her life too -while the child is a lost cause, you can still save hers!

If you were really pro-life, you wouldn't consider any child a 'lost cause'.

But ultimately, if you do object to life-saving abortions for everyone..

There is no such thing as a 'life-saving' abortion. A life is taken with every abortion.

Avoid the smoke-screen! Most pro-aborts raise the 'hard issues' of rape, incest, and life of mother to draw sympathy from people for women facing these tough times, and would rather debate you on these questions in effort to show how heartless you are, than to talk about the real central question of abortion on demand.

Avoid the smoke-screen! Some pro-lifers raise the 'hard issues' of ectopic rupture, and life of mother to draw sympathy from people for women facing these tough times, and would rather debate you on these questions in effort to show how heartless you are, than to talk about the real central issue that abortion is killing a child.

But please don't let conversation dwell on your demand that all women should die for a doomed child, just because you would.

Again with the doom...Oy!

Again, I respect your choice, but since it's not a matter of ending a child's life anymore,

Of course it is. If the baby is still alive when you perfrom your little mercy operation, then you have killed it. IOW, you have ended it's life.

You'll make people a lot less likely to discredit your whole pro-life belief system that the unborn are human beings.

Really. I think you do more to discredit your whole 'pro-life' belief system by advocating murder for children whom you have labeled as 'doomed anyway'. Life is life, doomed or not. There are no exceptions.

 

[ZooMom]

Phoebe, yes the pain was bad, at least by the time Monday rolled around. But having just come through kidney stone surgery, I have to take that as 'top of the list'. LOL!

And I mean this in the gentlest way possible, God gave us doctors to help us when we are in medical need, not to kill children to spare us pain.

Peace be with you.

 

[CareBear]

Yes! The baby is still a baby no matter how he/she is made! I am one that does not believe in abortion. If I have something bad happen to me, like rape for example. I would still have the baby, but i would give her/him up for adoption. That way i wouldn't ever take what happened to me out on the child!

Hope u don't mind me jumping in here. I saw the post and thought i would comment on the subject!

God Bless 

 

 

 

[CareBear]

This may be a stupid question, i don't know...but can't they take a tubal pregnancy and place the child into the womb? I mean, with everything that they can do now a days u figure that they could do something like that.

 

[Phoebe]

I have never heard of a reversal for a tubal pregnancy. Mine occurred 14 years ago. I really doubt that my fetus was still alive. I also was already anesthetized, I couldn't have asked if I'd wanted to. Also, if it were possible, I think that I would have been given the option before surgery.
Sometimes this is God's way of saying, "No."

 

When I was at the doctor's office, before I was seen, I was already beginning to go into shock from the pain and blood loss. I didn't know if I was going to puke or pass out. (sorry for the graphics) I crouched down near the floor to avoid having a big fall if I did pass out.

To add to all of this, I hve never gotten pregnant since.

 

[ZooMom]

Carebear, it is impossible to move an implanted fetus and expect it to live. Once the fetus has attached it cannot be moved because it won't reattach itself. And medical science still does not have the knowledge or skill to force implantation. As with in vitro fertilization, they can introduce fertilized eggs into the womb, but they cannot make them implant.

Phoebe, don't look back with regret. *hug* There was nothing you could have done differently. Your child wouldn't have lived but a few minutes after the rupture occured, and as I've said there is no possible way (yet) to make an ectopic pregnancy 'normal'. I am so sorry that you have not been able to conceive again. You will be in my prayers.

Peace.