Abortion

[xAtheistx]

I can't repsect people who make blanket statements regarding other people's behaviors. No excuses.

A blanket statement regarding other people's behaviors... you mean like, "Thou shalt not kill" ?

 

[flicka]

If you can knowingly destroy your own baby, I can't respect you as a person. No excuses.

But I'm guessing you do anyway. Statistically speaking you probably do know and respect woman who have had abortions...you just don't realize it.

 

[xAtheistx]

Statistically?
Where did you find the statistic that says how many women I respect?

 

[flicka]

Statistically?
Where did you find the statistic that says how many women I respect?

My apologies. I was not aware you didn't respect woman in general.

BTW I was speaking of the abortion statistics posted in the OP.

 

[SimplyMe]

A blanket statement regarding other people's behaviors... you mean like, "Thou shalt not kill" ?

Actually, as has been pointed out ad nauseam on the Iraq threads, the actual commandment is "Thou shalt not murder". Just as killing fetuses, regardless of your opinion, is not murder.

 

[xAtheistx]

My apologies. I was not aware you didn't respect woman in general.

BTW I was speaking of the abortion statistics posted in the OP.

No, I seriously want to know. If somebody put together a site that says I personally respect X women, and you did the math, I'd like to know.

It's your opinion that abortion is moral murder. I personally disagree. It's certainly not legally murder.

Right. I would like to see it such.

So if you'd like to continue the debate on how to approach the issue of lowering abortions, you might find that sticking to the facts and leaving your own personal opinions and emotionally charged lingo out of it would do more to figuring out how to lower abortion rates which, I'm assuming, is a common goal.

-edited-

I know this may shock you, but laws are not opinions of what society should be, and they're not a means of trying to control other human beings through your opinions. Laws are guidelines of personal conduct

You don't think laws are opinions? Why do some people want laws changed? Because their OPINIONS differ. Guidelines of personal conduct they may be, but they're guidelines that are formed by opinions of what this country should be. See... if I submit a bill, or a guideline... it's my opinion of how human beings should act, even if it gets made into law.

I find it hard to take you seriously when you use that kind of language to describe something that you claim I don't like or appreciate. I find it hard to think you appreciate them when you use that sort of words.

-edit-

And SimplyMe, I wasn't referencing any specific scripture. I was attempting to make a blanket statement that perhaps some could relate to.

 

[xAtheistx]

I'm sorry my opinions are too different for you to understand.

But if I was trolling, I would NOT consider your post point by point.

 

[CSmrw]

A blanket statement regarding other people's behaviors... you mean like, "Thou shalt not kill" ?

Admonition. Not the same.

 

[xAtheistx]

I have better, more eloquent people I can speak with who don't choose to resort to swearing, name calling, and inflammatory comments, and their conversations are far more enjoyable, even though our opinons are different. It has nothing to do with your opinions, since your arguments are not anything I haven't heard and shot down dozens of times before you and I'll do again dozens of times after you. I'll leave you to your game and leave my keyboard to people interested in discussions.

The irony. Well, because you're clearly far superior and more important than I am, I'll leave you be.

If you want to get down off your high horse, I'm a forgiving person. Until then, I guess you can just leave your keyboard to people interested in discussions, while I continue to pursue them.

 

[loriersea]

Abortion is a blight on our land. Before Roe the number of abortions numbered in the thousands, now it's birth control and the people that support it are the same ones that refuse to take any personal responsibility.

That's absurd. Abortions did NOT number in the thousands before Roe. ALL estimates about how many abortions occurred before Roe are only estimates, but every estimate by anyone who is not deeply invested in the pro-illegal abortion cause indicates that abortions occurred with great frequency before abortion became legal.

Regarding abortion rates, I think this indicates that we need to do a better job of educating people about birth control and making birth control more readily available, as well as promoting responsible sexual behavior, but I am certainly glad that these millions of women were able to obtain safe, legal abortions instead of the dangerous, back-alley abortions many people would like to see them have.

 

[xAtheistx]

I am certainly glad that these millions of women were able to obtain safe, legal abortions instead of the dangerous, back-alley abortions many people would like to see them have.

Exactly what definition of safe are you going by?

There's one party whom I believe you're failing to include.

 

[loriersea]

Miscarriage and stillbirth are an entirely different story...
I'm sorry if your child dies while it's inside you. That's a sad thing.

The sad thing about abortion, legal or not, is that it is something you have to go out of your way to cause. People knowingly kill the humans growing inside of them. Call 'em fetuses, embryos, a clump of cells, whatever you want... they are on their way to becoming your baby. If you can knowingly destroy your own baby, I can't respect you as a person. No excuses.

A fetus is not a baby. I have had an early miscarriage. I have had a healthy pregnancy, and I have a baby. I can tell you with certainty that, when I had a miscarriage at 5 weeks, a baby did NOT die. I know people who have had children die, and they go through hell. It is preposterous to argue that a miscarriage in the first trimester is ANYTHING like having a child die.

And, my child is worth more than a first-trimester fetus. All children are. If I were pregnant again, and somebody told me that either my friend's child would die, or I would miscarry, I would choose to have the fetus die in a heartbeat. I wouldn't even have a moment's hesitation, because a first-trimester fetus is NOT a child, is not a person, is not a baby, and it is insulting to all children, persons, and babies to argue that it is.

I limit my comments to first-trimester fetuses, because after that point, I am less certain. I do not believe that a fetus is ever the moral equivalent of a person, but I do think that its humanity increases as the pregnancy progresses. When we are dealing with an organism that has all of the basic human structure in some rudimentary form, which happens around 12 weeks, then I am less willing to make certain statements (although I'd still choose an actual person over a fetus, even in the second or even third trimester, it would just be harder).

But to argue that an embryo at 5 weeks gestation is a person and to kill it is murder is nothing more than delusional.

 

[loriersea]

Exactly what definition of safe are you going by?

There's one party whom I believe you're failing to include.

No, there's not. Most abortions occur before 8 weeks; the vast majority occur before 12 weeks. A first-trimester fetus is NOT a person, or a baby, or a child. As I said, having miscarried at 5 weeks, I can tell you that my loss was NOT the loss of a child. My gosh, when I think about how I felt having the miscarriage (mainly disappointment) and how I would feel if my son were to die (something it hurts me to just think about, and that I honestly have trouble thinking about without crying), it makes me sick to think that anyone could claim that an embryo is a child.

 

[xAtheistx]

to argue that an embryo at 5 weeks gestation is a person and to kill it is murder is nothing more than delusional.

I guess I'm delusional.

But consider the following: You were once a 5 week old embryo.
Other than the experiences you've had since then, how is killing you then any different than killing you now?

 

[katautumn]

Yes, I was once a five week old embryo. I was wanted. That's what matters.

 

[loriersea]

I guess I'm delusional.

But consider the following: You were once a 5 week old embryo.
Other than the experiences you've had since then, how is killing you then any different than killing you now?

I was also once an egg and sperm that had not yet met. If my parents had not had sex on the day I was conceived, I wouldn't be here. If my father had masturbated that night instead of having sex with my mother, I wouldn't be here. That wouldn't mean he killed me. Sure, it would theoretically suck for me if they'd used a condom that night and the sperm that made me got flushed down the toilet, but it would also have been sad if my parents never met, and so hadn't even been together that night. In either of those cases, I wouldn't be here. If my mother had had an abortion, it would be the same thing. I would have never been here. There would have been no "me" for the experience to actually suck for.

One thing that separates me from a 5-week-old embryo is that I have brain functions--and, not just lower brain function, but higher ones, too! I have a sex. I have both sensations and perceptions. It's not the amount of experiences that determines if someone is a person, but rather the simple ability to be able to have experiences. That doesn't develop until we have some degree of higher brain functioning, and the absolute earliest that occurs is about 20 weeks.

And, yes, I do believe that, no matter how popular the delusion may be, it is entirely delusional to believe that an embryo is a person.

 

[Brennin]

No, there's not. Most abortions occur before 8 weeks; the vast majority occur before 12 weeks. A first-trimester fetus is NOT a person, or a baby, or a child. As I said, having miscarried at 5 weeks, I can tell you that my loss was NOT the loss of a child. My gosh, when I think about how I felt having the miscarriage (mainly disappointment) and how I would feel if my son were to die (something it hurts me to just think about, and that I honestly have trouble thinking about without crying), it makes me sick to think that anyone could claim that an embryo is a child.

That is a ridiculous reaction.

 

[loriersea]

That is a ridiculous reaction.

So you believe, then, that having a miscarriage is the same thing as losing a child? You believe that there is NO difference between miscarrying at four or five or six weeks gestation and having your born child, who you have held and loved and known as a person (because they have a personality, even if they are only a few hours old), die?

If you believe that, I can only imagine that you have no children, because if you did, I cannot fathom that you could possibly believe that losing one of your kids would be the same thing as having an early miscarriage.

I had a somewhat difficult pregnancy with my son, and had pregnancy-induced hypertension in the last half of the pregnancy. I was worried I might have to deliver early, and I was worried that if my blood pressure got too high too early, my child might not survive. But, if it came down to my dying or my child being delivered too early and possibly not surviving, I would have taken the risk and delivered early. I would not have given my life so that my fetus would survive.

But, the moment my son was born, I would have died for him, and that feeling has only increased since then.

I know many women who have had early miscarriages, and honestly I don't know anyone who has ever been particularly torn up about it. The normal reaction seems to be disappointment, some sadness, and then giving it another shot next month. That's it. That is NOT what losing a child feels like. Honestly, I get more upset just thinking about anything happening to my son than I felt when I actually had an early miscarriage.

 

[Brennin]

So you believe, then, that having a miscarriage is the same thing as losing a child? You believe that there is NO difference between miscarrying at four or five or six weeks gestation and having your born child, who you have held and loved and known as a person (because they have a personality, even if they are only a few hours old), die?

If you believe that, I can only imagine that you have no children, because if you did, I cannot fathom that you could possibly believe that losing one of your kids would be the same thing as having an early miscarriage.

I don't know that I believe a 5-6 week old fetus is equivalent to a child. However, I think it is ridiculous that it would make you "sick" that someone else holds that belief. Also, it should be noted that some women take their miscarriages very hard.

 

[loriersea]

I don't know that I believe a 5-6 week old fetus is equivalent to a child. However, I think it is ridiculous that it would make you "sick" that someone else holds that belief. Also, it should be noted that some women take their miscarriages very hard.

Well, it does sicken me that someone would say that my child (or any child) and a five-week- old embryo are moral equivalents. I respect and love children too much to accept that. They are too valuable for me to think it is okay for someone to equate them to an embryo.

And, I do agree that some women take miscarriages hard. However, if you have ever known anyone who has lost a child, you would see that even women who take a miscarriage hard have an entirely different reaction to an entirely different circumstance than someone who has a child die.