• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Abortion: What do you think?

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not a very thorough response. Wouldn't you agree that it would be morally correct to give these theoretical sentient aliens rights, even if they weren't actually given rights?
Rights yes, as any other mammal. And if sentient, then rights of freedom as well, but not equal rights with human being, who are given dominion by God.

Gen 1:26,28
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, our personhood is directly tied to our brains. If you remove any appendage, you're still "you". Remove your brain, you're no longer "you". It's simple really...

If someone becomes "brain dead", like Terri Schiavo, you cease to be a person. What was actually Terri ceased to be when her brain was so severely damaged.
And then what? she just suddenly came back from the dead?

it's either one or the other hon, ya can't have ur cake without eating it too! :wave:

So, which is it that you believe?
She never ceased to be? OR she rose from the dead?

Boy o boy, we'll see you a believer by the end of today if ya keep up with this line of reasoning! ^_^
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Er, ok, so which rights should they get and which shouldn't they get exactly?
Do I look like a politician out for your vote? :confused: ^_^

Many people, as we are, in democratic nations, would vote on such things. :wave:

But, I would say everytthing except dominion over the earth and all it's fullness, whcih is a direct, inalienable right given by our Creator, and thiers [IF there even BE such a creature-lol] ;)
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And? I've already mentioned that being pronounced brain dead and being brain dead are two different things. Here... let me go pronounce my co worker brain dead...

Hmmm, I think he may still be alive...
Actually, upon perusing the wiki on this subject and a few top google hits, I surmise the wiki is on track when it says this;
The diagnosis of brain death needs to be rigorous, in order to be certain that the condition is irreversible. Legal criteria vary, but in general in the USA they require neurological examinations by two independent physicians. The exams must show complete absence of brain function (brain stem function in UK), and may include two isoelectric (flat-line) EEGs 24 hours apart (less in other countries where it is accepted that if the cause of the dysfunction is a clear physical trauma there is no need to wait that long to establish irreversibility). The widely-adopted Uniform Determination of Death Act in the United States attempts to standardize criteria. The patient should have a normal temperature
and be free of drugs that can suppress brain activity if the diagnosis is to be made on EEG criteria.
Brain death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,787
3,884
✟274,996.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
And then what? she just suddenly came back from the dead?

Huh? Terri suffered brain death and ceased to be a person. Her body was later allowed to die. There was no "coming back" from anything...

it's either one or the other hon, ya can't have ur cake without eating it too!

So, which is it that you believe?
She never ceased to be? OR she rose from the dead?

See above...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ToddNotTodd said:
If someone becomes "brain dead", like Terri Schiavo, you cease to be a person. What was actually Terri ceased to be when her brain was so severely damaged.
Huh? Terri suffered brain death and ceased to be a person. Her body was later allowed to die. There was no "coming back" from anything...

See above...
See above. :wave:

You see I referrenced just one of many cases of life after brain 'death' yes?
Some will die, others will live..
Therefore are your statements FAR from empirical evidence, in FACT, the epirical evidence readily available is completely contradictory to your thesis. Some die, some live..again.. Or, they never died to begin with (even being found clinically dead, as has been shown).. Which is it, or, are you still clueless?

And then what? she just suddenly came back from the dead?

it's either one or the other hon, ya can't have ur cake without eating it too! :wave:

So, which is it that you believe?
She never ceased to be? OR she rose from the dead?

Boy o boy, we'll see you a believer by the end of today if ya keep up with this line of reasoning! ^_^

C'mon now, someones gotta be able to grasp this line of REASON!!!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,787
3,884
✟274,996.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
See above. :wave:

You see I referrenced just one of many cases of life after brain 'death' yes?
Some will die, others will live..
Therefore are your statements FAR from empirical evidence, in FACT, the epirical evidence readily available is completely contradictory to your thesis. Some die, some live..again.. Or, they never died to begin with (even being found clinically dead, as has been shown).. Which is it, or, are you still clueless?



C'mon now, someones gotta be able to grasp this line of REASON!!!

Like I've said several times, being pronounced brain dead and being brain dead are two different things. The woman in the story wasn't really brain dead. They just use that in the headline to make the story more sensational. You're not really falling for that, are you?

Since you've said you have lots of cases where people "come back" after being brain dead, lets see some more. Preferably where the person has been pronounced brain dead for a significant amount of time.
 
Upvote 0

clep

Newbie
May 1, 2010
181
7
✟15,352.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
And? I've already mentioned that being pronounced brain dead and being brain dead are two different things. Here... let me go pronounce my co worker brain dead...

Hmmm, I think he may still be alive...



And?



That makes no sense at all. My reasoning is that you can make an argument to limit abortions to fetuses 20 weeks or earlier. Aren't most abortions performed during this time anyway?

Doctors do not know everything. They make mistakes just as everyone can and they have made mistakes in this area. I am thinking it is probable that they have killed people that might have been able to live in the future out of lack of knowledge. Either way people die at the hands of someone else's perceptions and choice.

I noticed you say "and" when you do not know what to say. I have seen that often.

No one can say when "most" abortions are performed. If the word "most" is in there, that doesn't mean all and there are children that are being murdered according to your reasoning.

Either way human beings seem to think they have the right to decide if someone else should live. We have that happen with serial killers or anyone who has murdered anyone. They too justify reasons they should have the right to kill another just as you are here.

Only God has he right to decide if someone should live or die. God does that via miscarriage. Anything other than that is murder.
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Like I've said several times, being pronounced brain dead and being brain dead are two different things. The woman in the story wasn't really brain dead. They just use that in the headline to make the story more sensational. You're not really falling for that, are you?
Am I really gonna fall for some layperson to tell me what is what, is THAT what you're asking? :confused: :blush:
The heart of a person pronounced clinically dead may be started up again by artificial means; however, this does not indicate the person is still alive. Under these circumstances, the beating heart may be removed for organ transplantation.

BBC - h2g2 - The Processes of Death and Decomposition

How's about backing your assertion ["being pronounced brain dead and being brain dead are two different things"] with some empirical evidence? Or should I just believe you 'cuz ur right, and that's that? :doh:
The law requires for brain death to be certified by two doctors who have been qualified for more than 5 years, and who have administered two sets of tests, with an interval in between. Even though brain-dead persons may be kept artificially alive on a ventilator, their bodies will nevertheless begin to decompose.
Ibid.

John 11:14,39
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Since you've said you have lots of cases where people "come back" after being brain dead, lets see some more. Preferably where the person has been pronounced brain dead for a significant amount of time.
I've already cited one (recent, May '10) case and you have defied the reality of truth staring you blank in the face.. How many more cases until you're convinced? I've also exhorted you that these doings are not hidden away under the shadows of the netherworld, but are readily available with any quick google search.. Here -->

'Dead' woman moves arm as embalming begins
msnbc.com health - 'Dead' woman moves arm as embalming begins

Pam Reynolds... underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest. It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. This case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead.
There's plenty more, if you cared enough for truth to actually take the time to look. :boredsleep:


People have near-death experiences while brain dead
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,787
3,884
✟274,996.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Am I really gonna fall for some layperson to tell me what is what, is THAT what you're asking? :confused: :blush:

You really can't see the capacity for doctors to misdiagnose? Really?

Ok then:

From the Wiki article about brain death (isn't that one you tried to use to prove your point?):


The case of Zach Dunlap, who was declared brain dead but later recovered may be seen to undermine this presumption. However, since he was declared dead only a few hours after presentation, he did not yet meet the American Academy of Neurology's brain death criteria, so he should not have been declared dead, and would not have met UK test conditions in any case. This is clearly a case of negligent misdiagnosis.


and:

40% of coma patients in a ‘vegetative state’ may be misdiagnosed, says a new report.

How's about backing your assertion ["being pronounced brain dead and being brain dead are two different things"] with some empirical evidence? Or should I just believe you 'cuz ur right, and that's that?

See above.

John 11:14,39
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

You could have quoted from Frankenstein and it would mean as much...

I've already cited one (recent, May '10) case and you have defied the reality of truth staring you blank in the face.. How many more cases until you're convinced? I've also exhorted you that these doings are not hidden away under the shadows of the netherworld, but are readily available with any quick google search.. Here -->

I like the "reality of the truth" part. It made me chuckle.


Thanks for that link. Here's something from your article that backs up my point (you didn't really read the article, did you...)

On rare occasions, a person's heart rate and breathing can drop to undetectable levels, leading doctors to erroneously declare a patient dead, said neurosurgeon Juan Mendoza Vega, a member of the Colombian National Medical Ethics Board.

"It can happen," he said. "But it's not a matter of coming back to life because the person was never dead."​

There's plenty more, if you cared enough for truth to actually take the time to look.

Suuuure there are.


Anecdotal evidence is no basis for knowledge. And anyway, all this is far afield from the issue. It's painfully obvious that our brains are who "we" are. I'm not sure why you're not getting it. If someone removed your brain and replaced it with an electronic device that made your body move around and talk, it wouldn't be "you" at all.
 
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,787
3,884
✟274,996.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Doctors do not know everything. They make mistakes just as everyone can and they have made mistakes in this area. I am thinking it is probable that they have killed people that might have been able to live in the future out of lack of knowledge. Either way people die at the hands of someone else's perceptions and choice.

And?

I noticed you say "and" when you do not know what to say. I have seen that often.

I say "And?" when I feel the other person has said something, but not actually made a point relevant to the argument. I'm giving them a cue to make their point. See above...

No one can say when "most" abortions are performed. If the word "most" is in there, that doesn't mean all and there are children that are being murdered according to your reasoning.

You can google and find statistics on when most abortions are performed. Fox News says 91% are performed in the first trimester. And yes, if you use brain waves as a test for personhood, then abortions after 20-25 weeks would be wrong barring other circumstances.

Either way human beings seem to think they have the right to decide if someone else should live. We have that happen with serial killers or anyone who has murdered anyone. They too justify reasons they should have the right to kill another just as you are here.

You're presupposing personhood. It's more correct to say that abortions before 20 weeks aren't deciding if "someone else should live", since there's no "someone else" to begin with.

Only God has he right to decide if someone should live or die. God does that via miscarriage. Anything other than that is murder.

For me to buy that argument, you'd have to show that your god exists...
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You really can't see the capacity for doctors to misdiagnose? Really?
*emphasis added*

If you're not willing to consider the possibility that doctors, who have spent the greater majority of their lives devoted to this subject, could be right and you wrong, then this conversation is over, for it has little else to do but die.. :sigh:
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟24,353.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You really can't see the capacity for doctors to misdiagnose? Really?

Ok then:

From the Wiki article about brain death (isn't that one you tried to use to prove your point?):
The case of Zach Dunlap, who was declared brain dead but later recovered may be seen to undermine this presumption. However, since he was declared dead only a few hours after presentation, he did not yet meet the American Academy of Neurology's brain death criteria, so he should not have been declared dead, and would not have met UK test conditions in any case. This is clearly a case of negligent misdiagnosis.
and:

40% of coma patients in a ‘vegetative state’ may be misdiagnosed, says a new report.
And those are malpractice cases, not misdiagnosis', WHY? Because they did not wait the specified time. Ergo, it wasn't a misdiagnosis, seeing as they did not diagnose according to the preset criteria, rather, it was blatent mal-practice. :blush:

In the original article I cited (from a reputable medical news site) the woman was brain dead for 17 hours, which MEETS, and EXCEEDS the criteria of proof according to law. In the cases you have cited, none of them have met this proof. Just as in the case I cited from msbn, the woman who was being embalmed while still alive had NOT met the proper criteria. As she was not brain dead for the specified length of time.

Malpractice is NOT the same as a misdiagnosis.
The case you have cited is malpractice. :wave:

See above.
See above.

You could have quoted from Frankenstein and it would mean as much...
Are you here, particpating on a Christian website designed to encourage discourse between people's of various faiths, or people of none (if there is such a thing) and insulting our Scripture?

Why would you do such a thing if your motive was pure? :confused:

This is the ULTIMATE troll, bait and switch.. :blush:

Do you also troll sites which have their loved ones deceased and tell the grievers that their loved ones are gone forever though they cling to hope, or that they're already dead because their brain has ceased to function though they be hopeful for recovery?

C'mon, have HEART! :hug:

I like the "reality of the truth" part. It made me chuckle.
I cited many articles, and you've been squirming to escape the reality of what the concensous is, even before it was given, because you knew it was true, even before you chose to deny it..
Why not, rather, look at the material in a non-subjective manner? You might actually learn something..

Thanks for that link. Here's something from your article that backs up my point (you didn't really read the article, did you...)
On rare occasions, a person's heart rate and breathing can drop to undetectable levels, leading doctors to erroneously declare a patient dead, said neurosurgeon Juan Mendoza Vega, a member of the Colombian National Medical Ethics Board.

"It can happen," he said. "But it's not a matter of coming back to life because the person was never dead."
Do I agree with everything anyone says (Jesus excepted, of course), no.
BUT, do I allow the freedom of their beliefs so long as they don't attempt to force them upon hapless victims, certainly! :kiss:

Persons who do not meet the medical and lawful criteria for being dead, are not SUPPOSED to be presumed so, without proper examination and time. Anything less, is malpractice.

The doctor who declared that poor woman who was emblamed while was she was still alive is sued for malpratice, not misdiagnosis of her death. For the doctor never WAITIED the specified amount of time, therefore what he did was illegal, not merely a mistake, but a blatent disregard for the RULES of practice here in the America's. :blush:

Suuuure there are.
It seems to me you are speaking of 'Information-theoretic death", not 'death' as the world knows it.
This is only an assertion by Harvard, not an actual FACT, hence the term 'theoretic'.
It is not backed by rigorous study and research, empirical evidence.. To date!

Here is some info on this subject that I think might best reflect what I believe you are attempting to convey;

Wiki on Information-theoretic death said:
A person is dead according to the information-theoretic criterion if their memories, personality, hopes, dreams, etc. have been destroyed in the information-theoretic sense. That is, if the structures in the brain that encode memory and personality have been so disrupted that it is no longer possible in principle to restore them to an appropriate functional state, then the person is dead.

If the structures that encode memory and personality are sufficiently intact that inference of the memory and personality are feasible in principle, and therefore restoration to an appropriate functional state is likewise feasible in principle, then the person is not dead.
Is this what you believe?

Anecdotal evidence is no basis for knowledge. And anyway, all this is far afield from the issue. It's painfully obvious that our brains are who "we" are. I'm not sure why you're not getting it. If someone removed your brain and replaced it with an electronic device that made your body move around and talk, it wouldn't be "you" at all.
Your body is not just a brain hun. ^_^

YOU are a complex person, with ALL factulities of spirit, soul and body.

Your body itself is complex; with marrow, bones, joints, muscles and organs.
To say that only one organ is YOU, is to imply the rest is unnecessary.. :doh:

1 Corinthians 12:14-17
For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Beechwell

Glücksdrache
Sep 2, 2009
768
23
Göttingen
✟23,677.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
I withdrew from the discussion a while ago, because I feel I lack any common ground for a sensible discussion of key matters with some participants.

But still I'd like to ask Zeena what you'd make of the numerous and well documented evidence that brain damage induces sometimes drastic personality changes.

Some examples:
Brain Damage and Personality Change after Subarachnoid Haemorrhage -- STOREY 117 (537): 129 -- The British Journal of Psychiatry
Personality Changes | Traumatic Brain Injury Recovery
Brain damage and personality

PS: I think the whole brain dead or not discussion is rather pointless. Noone has yet shown any signs of personality while brain dead, and if personality can indeed be restored after being brain dead for a while, this merely means that all necessary information about the personality was still stored in the brain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zeena
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,787
3,884
✟274,996.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
<snip>

Your body is not just a brain hun.

And here's the crux of the problem. I never said our bodies were just our brains. I said that everything that makes us "us" is in our brains. Therefore, before a fetus has a developed brain, there's no logical reason to refer to them as "persons". Here's a thought experiment that might make this easier for you to understand...

Let's say that your brain is removed and put in the body of a robot. This robot is controlled by your brain in the same way your body was controlled by your brain. Let's also say that your now brainless body is kept alive with machines. The question is:

Which one of these things (the robot with your brain or your brainless body) is "you"?
 
Upvote 0

Caitlin.ann

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2006
5,454
441
36
Indiana
✟52,777.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I have to admit, I always had mixed feelings about whether abortion should be legal. I mean, I don't believe in it. I'd never have one. But I was unsure about whether other people should be allowed to.

Now, I have to say, I recently stumbled across this article. I was pretty shaken up when reading it. It gives stories of abortion from people who experienced it. I am wondering what people think.

Abortion: Should people have the right to abort an unborn child? - by Sarah Terzo - Helium

I think that abortion is very wrong. I think it should be illegal in most cases unless a woman's life is in danger or she was raped.
I am pro-choice. Could I personally ever have an abortion? At this point I don't think so. However since my chances of getting pregnant are slim, and the offspring would be my fiance's anyways, I don't really have to worry about it either. We've both decided if a "mistake" occured we would like to keep the resulting baby.

However I will defend someone else's right to choose. I am ok with early abortions, which are most of the ones taking place. That leaves the remainder of abortions "late-term" which are almost always done in cases of extreme endangerment to health, which I also support.
 
Upvote 0