Abortion stops a beating heart

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Well, I also believe that the soul will simply be 'reassigned' after the temination anyway. Therefore it's not killing a 'person' so much as destroying the physical body. Especially since the 'person' has not yet emerged into the world or even gained a fully formed and functioning body.

 

[gladiatrix]

Leaving aside the idea that a cow matters more than a human being,

??? Who says that? Very strange since we eat them, milk them, and wear them...

most abortions occur in the 2nd month or after.

Let's do a much more accurate breakdown of the figures. Let's try not to leave people with the mistaken "impression" that that most abortions are the "brain-sucking" partial-birth abortions (a fallacy so often spouted by anti-choicers to stir up hatred against pro-choicers), shall we...

When Women have Abortions (in Weeks)

As one can see:

• 55% of abortions occur before the 9th week
• +77% have occurred by the 10th week
• 90% have occurred by the 12 week
• 99% have occurred before the 21th week

Abortion statistics from the Center for Disease Control and the nonprofit Alan Guttmacher Institute which collect the only national abortion statistics. Guttmacher counts more abortions because it directly surveys clinics.

The heart starts beating around 3 weeks when most non-observant women might not even realize they are pregnant.

You're embryology is off.......

From The Human Heart

In fact, the human heart is only a pump. But what a pump! It starts as a microscopic part of the human embryo. It begins beating during the 4th week of pregnancy and must continue beating without any long pause for as long as that person lives. It has four thin, flexible valves that must open and close with each heartbeat -- 35 million times a year for a lifetime. The only rest period for the heart muscle is the short time between heartbeats. No mechanical device yet invented can duplicate the performance of the human heart.

Also see THIS SITE

This is a 4 week embryo (4-6mm or less than a rice grain in length) with that beating heart (it doesn't work until it has formed and it hasn't done so before 30 days)

From UNSW Embryology Carnegie Stage 13

 

[Ryoko Ozaki]

Good info gladiatrix.

 

[Pastor_Benjamin]

Its wrong the only person that should decide that is God.

 

[ej]

Some familiar names in this thread who I haven't seen for a while

 

[seebs]

Abortion stops a beating heart.

Can anybody refute this?

Sure. Abortion in the first week or so can't stop a beating heart, because there's not even differentiated tissue there yet. "Prevents", rather than "stops", would give us slippery-slope problems; failing to have sex when fertile prevents a beating heart, failing to get married as soon as you're biologically sexually mature prevents a beating heart...

Just a reminder to everyone: Most pro-choice people are primarily thinking of VERY EARLY abortions. Most pro-life people are primarily thinking of VERY LATE abortions.

 

[joebudda]

Abortion stops a beating heart.

Can anybody refute this?

In India you have Christians stopping hearts on a weekly bases because people don’t believe what the Christians do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

 

[jidujiao]

In India you have Christians stopping hearts on a weekly bases because people don’t believe what the Christians do.

Don't forget, though:

In India you have Hindus stopping hearts on a weekly bases because people don’t believe what the Hindus do.

and

In India you have Muslims stopping hearts on a weekly bases because people don’t believe what the Muslims do.

I'm sure your one-sidedness was just an oversight.

 

[slayer-2004]

First of all , I find the whole idea of when an abortion is ok ( is the baby alive or not ) a retarded and stupid thing to argue over . The point is it is Going to be a baby and it is going to have a life . If I somehow went back in time and did something to prevent you from ever existing have I murdered you ? The fact is , yes I essentially in the long run have rid myself of you for good . The argument on whether or not the fetus is alive is a pathetic attempt to make yourself sound more human .

"Oh its not really alive ... I think ... well now it isnt ... or is it ?"

"Who cares its part of your body flush it anyway !"

pointless . I think deep down we all know that abortion does prevent a child from a chance of life one way or another and conversations like whether or not the heart is being stopped is just pathetic attempts at analyzing small details while ignoring the big picture as to what is going on .

Here is what I think about abortion : It should be legal , but we need to stop kidding ourselves and accept the fact that most abortions are done by people who were careless and now want to flee responsibility . In the long run abortion takes away life one way or another . Its that simple . Nobody can refute that because it is a fact .

I actually think people who get abortions because they were not carefull shouldnt be allowed to get abortions , namely because they could have chosen not to have sex . Its not hard to turn down sex , I have personally done it before ... problem is girls who are raped should be allowed to not have to go through such pain if they do not wish to do so , and if we outlawed abortions except for in cases of rape lets just say a lot more innocent young men will be humiliated and sent to jail for something they didnt do within the same year such a law is made . ( I'll leave it up to you to figure out why )

 

[Asimov]

Its wrong the only person that should decide that is God.

Maybe God is deciding these things.

 

[dweebs]

Good evening everyone,

Well I'm just going to plunge right in here, if I'm judged I hope it's on courage that I'm weighed.

Abortion
Spiritual: I was 17 when I had an abortion. I'm going to tell you that the first thing I fretted over when I came to Christ was just that, I kept reading over and over a verse that had me shaking, 1 John 3:15 ..... and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. I was relieved that I'm forgiven even for that. Whether my first thoughts were apart of my conscience from people condemning abortion or if it was God reminding me not to judge anyone and to have tolerance with my brothers and sisters that believe otherwise, I'll leave that debate to someone else.
My feelings on abortion before that were supported because I truely believed that if I had been aborted by my mother I would have been born to a family with a decent life instead of ending up in state custody and living the young adult life that I was forced to. Now I know that I was born into that home for reasons, I was strong enough to pull through it and I can now help and counsel anyone in that situation without ignorance.
When I became pregnant with a man (boy really) that didn't want anything to do with me or the baby, I had no place to go, no prospects, no income but I amazingly got enough money to get an abortion which could have paid rent until I found a job. I convinced myself that this was best for this child and best for ME. (The only thing I was truely thinking of).
I am truely thankful that through Jesus I am forgiven. And I hope that the baby's soul will go to someone else like was mentioned here since I made a horrible mistake.
Logical: From the abortion I received a staff infection of my uterus. I can't tell you the pain and agony of that. When I got pregnant again later on I decided to keep the baby. I miscarried, heartbroken almost beyond repair I went home to wait for the surgery appointment, my body didn't want to wait that long and I ended up hemorrhaging, I obviously survived. We decided to try again awhile later, I got pregnant and this time we kept close watch. I was given a synthetic hormone to help me along, if I could make it past 5 months I was in the clear, I went to the hospital when I hadn't felt her kick all day, I waited and waited and waited while they ran tests on me and watched as she didn't move on the ultrasound machine waiting for the doctor to confirm what I already knew. I had lost her. I then carried my dead child inside of me for a few more days then gave birth, and not yet given up hope, I asked the doctor as soon as I had delivered if there was any sign of life. There wasn't. They suggested an autopsy which I agreed to, it turns out she had basically starved, not receiving the things she had needed for nourishment while I was carrying her. I got several oppinions from her results, even consulting a medical lawyer who were all of the same oppinion. Many women that get abortions have this same problem, once a pregnancy is aborted at a certain time their bodies don't work properly for their next pregnancy. Most of those women like myself aren't able to birth a child and miscarry many times before giving up. Something no one had told me before having the abortion. It's also common to get infection after abortions. You just can't convince me otherwise that logically or spiritually abortion is a wrong decision. I didn't even touch the death or heartbeat arguement for a reason, I don't need to. I didn't lose one child to an idiot decision that I made as a kid, I lost several and will not be able to carry a child.



Anyone is more than welcome to copy and paste that to young ladies that are considering abortion.

As for the animal arguement, I will crusade with you until the end of time to save animals from shelters and will be the first to volunteer help to you to find them good homes. I've burried both animals and children, please please think before you remotely start to compare the two. I love and respect vegetarians but sometimes I think they are overcome with passion to save them and go too far. Passion is wonderful for any cause but think about which you would be forced to save, a child or an animal and I sincerely hope you choose the child because they are uncomparable.

Respectfully,
Dweebs (Reg)

 

[Asimov]

What most "pro-lifers" dont' understand, is that pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion.

They think that pro-choicers are gettin abortions every day and having abortion parties and all that junk. It's really annoying being misrepresented like that.

What pro-choice people support is a womans decision to have an abortion, I myself am supportive of that decision. And in the interest of safety and medical advancement, I'm for researching more safe and effective means of abortion, so that we don't hurt the mother/girl.

The second thing Pro-choice people realise, is that some people are so desperate to rid themselves of a baby, that they will resort to any means necessary to get rid of the baby. These means usually involve coat-hangers, and other equally dangerous and possibly life-threatening methods. What we know, is that abortions happen whether or not it's illegal. And if they are legal, we can go about helping these women who made a bad mistake.

People who go about banning abortions think that they're helping society by "quelling sin" and "stopping murders" by banning it. In short, they dont' face the problem, they turn their backs on it.

Whatever your definition of abortion is, or of what a beating heart is is irrelevant. If a woman doesn't want a baby, we need to help her, instead of turn her away, and make sure she doesn't hurt herself. This is the MOST important thing.

 

[joebudda]

Don't forget, though:

In India you have Hindus stopping hearts on a weekly bases because people don’t believe what the Hindus do.

I would like to see proof of this. The whole philosophy behind Hindu is the right to believe what you want.

From here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

In order to create a Christian nation, the Christians uses some of the most violent means to convert the remaining Hindu and tribal populations in the state. An estimated 11,000 have been killed on both sides of the conflict. In addition, the terror has left over 40,000 as refugees, the majority of whom are Reang tribals.

The Christians have also issued threats against any citizens who adhere to Indian or Hindu culture. They have used threats against people who celebrate traditional Hindu festivals such as Durga Pooja and Makar Sankranthi, listen to Indian music, watch Indian TV and films, and wear bangles or bindis.

In India you have Muslims stopping hearts on a weekly bases because people don’t believe what the Muslims do.

I'm sure your one-sidedness was just an oversight.

Yes this is happening too. Being another monotheist belief with the goal of evangelicalism and conversion too.

 

[jidujiao]

Click here for a link to a story about Hindu militancy.

Click here for a link to a story about Hindu-Muslim violence.

Hindus beat up Muslim children because their cricket ball went into a temple.

India bans documentary on Hindu-Muslim violence.

This is from www.religioustolerance.org:
Religions which recognize the existence of multiple deities have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant. Hinduism remains arguably one of the most tolerant of such religions. However, during the past few years, a Hindu nationalistic political party has controlled the government of India. The linkage of religion, the federal government and nationalism has led to a recent degeneration in the separation of church and state in India. This, in turn, has decreased the level of religious tolerance in that country. The escalation of anti-Christian violence is one manifestation of this linkage.

Hindu-Christian violence, including Christians forced to convert to Hinduism, from HumanRightsWatch.org

Link to story about Hindu violence against Christians


A simple Google search turns up a lot about Hindus acting in ways that are certainly not tolerant and other-worldview-inclusive.

 

[joebudda]

Click here for a link to a story about Hindu-Muslim violence.

taken from link.

The violence came as retaliation for Wednesday's firebombing by Muslims of a train carrying Hindu returning from Ayodhya. Fifty-eight people, many of them women and children, died in that attack, fueling outrage that threatens to spark a new wave of communal bloodletting throughout India.

Hindus beat up Muslim children because their cricket ball went into a temple.

from link.

The violence broke out in February 2002 when a Muslim mob in the Gujarat town of Godhra torched a train carrying Hindu, killing 59 people.

India bans documentary on Hindu-Muslim violence.

from link.
The riots broke when Hindu mobs set off a wave of revenge killings after the burning of a train that left 60 Hindus dead.

This is from www.religioustolerance.org:
Religions which recognize the existence of multiple deities have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant. Hinduism remains arguably one of the most tolerant of such religions. However, during the past few years, a Hindu nationalistic political party has controlled the government of India. The linkage of religion, the federal government and nationalism has led to a recent degeneration in the separation of church and state in India. This, in turn, has decreased the level of religious tolerance in that country. The escalation of anti-Christian violence is one manifestation of this linkage.

Hindu-Christian violence, including Christians forced to convert to Hinduism, from HumanRightsWatch.org

Link to story about Hindu violence against Christians


A simple Google search turns up a lot about Hindus acting in ways that are certainly not tolerant and other-worldview-inclusive.

And you don’t find it strange that this has started after the “conversion” of their population to monotheist beliefs through violence.

Should they just sit back and let their people be killed because they don’t believe the same thing?

My point is not to Christian bash but to show people that this kind of violent “evangelicalism” is still going on. In hopes that others then learn and maybe something will be done can be done.

Right now in America (mostly Christian) you don’t hear about this on our news. Then maybe who knows we will look back on it like we do the crusades today and go, well they weren’t “true” Christians or what ever. The point is it is still happening even if us Americans are not informed that it is.