Abortion, right or wrong?

[Chrysalis Kat]

I mean this seriously, folks. I want to hear some responses. BB

Fine, here’s one for ya and it's only mine, of course.
There is not a biblical account of such an event as your hypothetical scenario. No doubt that folks will try to reply according to their interpretation of carefully selected scriptures. But, doing this is, imo, a very slippery slope.

I think the entire matter is between God and the woman and that it’s absolutely none of my business. I’m not God and don’t play God on T.V. (or even on the internet). I wouldn’t attempt to pretend or quess to make decisions about what a Loving God would or would not do. I only know what I am to do. That's enough information for me.

 

[Imagine_your_dreams]

I believe it is murder of innocent babies, which is very wrong.

 

[indra_fanatic]

Fine, here’s one for ya and it's only mine, of course.
There is not a biblical account of such an event as your hypothetical scenario. No doubt that folks will try to reply according to their interpretation of carefully selected scriptures. But, doing this is, imo, a very slippery slope.

Fine, but where do you draw the line? If our society was entirely geared upon "these decisions are up to a person and God", we'd soon slip into anarchy. The whole basis of salvation and surrendering one's life to the Lord (I am not sure what your religious background is, so forgive me if you are not a Christian) is the personal acknowledgement that we, as fallen men, CANNOT be trusted to possess the moral skills needed to correctly make righteous decisions that would be pleasing to Him.

The Pharisees, as you'll recall, would have said that whether or not they pay taxes is something between themselves and God. I think the threshhold for questions of this nature is when some action directly infringes on another's rights. In abortion, it could be argued that the father of the child should have the same legal amount of input on the fate of the zygote/embryo/fetus as the mother.

Kat, most modern social dilemmas are not outright addressed by Scripture. There is no (literal) mention of firearms control, pensions, enviromnental stewardship, etc. We have to try to apply other Scriptural principles that ARE clear to the modern-day issues they are most similar to.

Scripture never directly speaks of masturbation, but Jesus clearly says that anyone who has any lust in their heart is guilty of adultery and that any physical object causing one to sin must be cut out of that person's life.

 

[f.o.o.t.man]

If I killed you (not that I would) you would be mad (not to mention dead.) You can justify it any way you want but all it comes down one person killing a baby.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Fine, but where do you draw the line? If our society was entirely geared upon "these decisions are up to a person and God", we'd soon slip into anarchy.

My reply was geared for the question that was asked, nothing more. The question was about how God would react within a given set of circumstances, not how society makes public policy.That's an entirely different can of worms

Kat, most modern social dilemmas are not outright addressed by Scripture. There is no (literal) mention of firearms control, pensions, enviromnental stewardship, etc. We have to try to apply other Scriptural principles that ARE clear to the modern-day issues they are most similar to.

There is a difference between personal morality and public policy. I know that there is a tendency to blur the boundaries but what is ‘right’ for one person and make that extend to all persons but I cannot make very personal decisions for anyone other than myself. It’s not my place to go around telling others they have to accept my authority especially in situations where I can’t possible have perfect understanding. That is God’s department, it’s not mine.
And yes, I realize that this may be a minority opinion on CF but that's Ok with me but to answer your first question, this is where I draw the line.

Scripture never directly speaks of masturbation, but Jesus clearly says that anyone who has any lust in their heart is guilty of adultery and that any physical object causing one to sin must be cut out of that person's life.

You’ve extrapolated from a scripture involving lust a condemnation of masturbation as a sin. Is this correct? Do you think that scripture tells people to cut off their genitalia if they become sexually aroused? Do you honestly believe that God wants this???
OK, this is how I understand the biblical position regarding Lust. You don’t have to agree with me but I since you brought it up I will share mine with you.

Let’s start with defining Lust –

lust noun. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.
- An overwhelming desire or craving: a lust for power.
-Intense eagerness or enthusiasm: a lust for life.
- Pleasure; relish

Lust is a sin. No argument from me on this. Lust is old fashion word for the sin of “excess of desire”. This includes all excesses of desire, not just sexual desire.
Sexual desire is not a sin in and of itself. Sexual desire is one of God’s greatest gifts! This is our god given natural healthy state. There would be something terrible amidst if we didn’t experience sexual desires.

Sexual attraction and desire and their physiological manifestations are not sins; they aren't things you do, they're things that happen to you. They are your experiences.
Sin is in how we respond to our experiences; whether we respond to them in a way that reflects a relationship with God, or not.

Look at it this way…. Feeling hungry or thirsty is natural for us. We nourish ourselves when we experience these sensations. However, over indulgence (i.e. Gluttony) is an aberration of natural normal desires. Do you see that?

 

[indra_fanatic]

There is a difference between personal morality and public policy. I know that there is a tendency to blur the boundaries but what is ‘right’ for one person and make that extend to all persons but I cannot make very personal decisions for anyone other than myself. It’s not my place to go around telling others they have to accept my authority especially in situations where I can’t possible have perfect understanding. That is God’s department, it’s not mine.

Kat, some things are always right and always wrong. Stealing is not right for certain people and sinful for others. Some issues do not have any gray areas to them.

Do you think that scripture tells people to cut off their genitalia if they become sexually aroused? Do you honestly believe that God wants this???

Sexual desire is not a sin in and of itself. Sexual desire is one of God’s greatest gifts! This is our god given natural healthy state. There would be something terrible amidst if we didn’t experience sexual desires.

Sexual attraction and desire and their physiological manifestations are not sins; they aren't things you do, they're things that happen to you. They are your experiences.
Sin is in how we respond to our experiences; whether we respond to them in a way that reflects a relationship with God, or not.

Look at it this way…. Feeling hungry or thirsty is natural for us. We nourish ourselves when we experience these sensations. However, over indulgence (i.e. Gluttony) is an aberration of natural normal desires. Do you see that?

Jesus says to remove any stumbling block in your life. I never used the term "genitalia". Kat, nobody said that the state of having sexual attraction is a sin. Relishing it is, however. There is no scriptural basis for affirming masturbation. Instead, we are taught that our bodies are temples, and that sexual sin is the only sin that is directly against our own body, etc.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Kat, some things are always right and always wrong. Stealing is not right for certain people and sinful for others. Some issues do not have any gray areas to them.

Actually I have found gray areas in most things.
Let’s use your example.
A mother has six hungry children to feed and no $ to buy food for them. Is it truly sinful for her to take available food to feed her children although she had to steal it to get it? Is stealing more sinful or is the sin in not doing everything possible to keep your child from starving to death?
An extreme example yes but it shows that those lines between right and wrong aren’t as clear as anyone of us would like them to be.

Jesus says to remove any stumbling block in your life. I never used the term "genitalia".

Yes that is correct. You didn’t use the word genitalia. However, I can’t image what other "physical object causing one to sin must be cut out of that person’s life" could possibly mean other than you were referencing the sex organs becoming aroused and leading to the desire to touch.
Perhaps you had something else in mind.

Kat, nobody said that the state of having sexual attraction is a sin. Relishing it is, however. There is no scriptural basis for affirming masturbation.

Nor is there scriptural basis for declaring it sin. Did ya read my reply? Excessive indulgence in **anything** (including masturbation) is sin.

nstead, we are taught that our bodies are temples, and that sexual sin is the only sin that is directly against our own body, etc.

Gluttony is a sin. Is that not against our own bodies?

 

[indra_fanatic]

Kat,

With all due respect, the analogy of a hungry person stealing to eat or feed their family is rather trite in rhetoric. The vast majority of shoplifting that goes on in America does not stem from physical need, but rather covetousness. However, let's talk about your impoverished mother. Without passing immediate judgment on her for the theft thing (even though I think she still may be sinning), she is guilty of bad stewardship over her body for having six children she can ill afford (and no, abortion shouldn't have been the answer to this). It's extremely unlikely that all six children came from rape or that her husband forced her to bear them. God may hold her accountable for stealing, but he will judge her for bringing helpless lives into such abject suffering.

As for the citation of cutting off parts of the body to avoid being thrown into hell (Matt 5:29-30), what do you propose that it means? Do you deny that our Lord is saying to get every sinful influence possible out of our lives? I take it to mean that we better deal with lust in any way possible. My theory is that extreme lust is a warning sign that you are either (a) allowing some mentally polluting influences into your life or (b) clear evidence that it's time to get married.

This line of yours bothered me a lot:

Excessive indulgence in **anything** (including masturbation) is sin.

Some realms are not subject to rules of moderation. By this logic, a man who decides to have an affair only once every five years may not be guilty of "excessive indulgence" in adultery. Sin is sin, whether one time or a hundred.

PS Kat: What is the origin of your screenname? Do you raise caterpillars or something?

 

[The Eagle Nature]

I think that the poll question is bad. I think an abortion is a sad thing, and not usually the best option, but I am pro-choice and think it should be legal. Women should have the choice to have one, especially considering the alternatives when the procedure is illegal.

 

[The Eagle Nature]

so i am assuming that you believe that abortion is morally wrong, right? do you believe that rape is morally wrong? do you believe that rape should be illegal? If yes, what is the differance between rape being morally wrong, and abortion being morally wrong? Are there two different definitions for "morally wrong?"

This is not just a black and white issue. Rape is wrong because it infringes upon the victim's rights. Abortion may be either wrong or not based on your viewpoint of whether the foetus is a living being or not. If you think that the foetus is a living baby, then abortion is infanticide. If you think that it is not alive, then abortion is not murder.

As for legality, I don't think that laws should be just made on morals like that. Rape and murder should be illegal because they infringe upon the victim's rights. Homosexuality (not necessarily talking about gay marriage), while it may be morally wrong in the eyes of traditionalist Christians and others, does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and thus should remain legal. Abortion is one of the more complex social issues, due to the fundamental difference in viewpoint.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Kat,

With all due respect, the analogy of a hungry person stealing to eat or feed their family is rather trite in rhetoric. The vast majority of shoplifting that goes on in America does not stem from physical need, but rather covetousness. However, let's talk about your impoverished mother. Without passing immediate judgment on her for the theft thing (even though I think she still may be sinning), she is guilty of bad stewardship over her body for having six children she can ill afford (and no, abortion shouldn't have been the answer to this). It's extremely unlikely that all six children came from rape or that her husband forced her to bear them. God may hold her accountable for stealing, but he will judge her for bringing helpless lives into such abject suffering.

My example (that you think is trite) was to show you that not everything is black and white and it was based upon the same example you posted.
You’ve asked questions I’ve tried to answer them to the best of my ability. I realize that there are people that happily go through life convinced that Right is Right, Wrong is Wrong and that middle ground never exists. The longer I live, the less I am able to share this perception.
In regards to your reply, suffice to say that my own mother had six children and yes we were dirt poor. She lived in a world where this she felt that having and raising children was what expected of her by her church, her family, her environment. Ya know, she really took that being fruitful and multiplying thing to heart . Her religious beliefs did not allow for the use of birth control nor to not submit to her husband. Was she a bad christian?
Recently I watched a video of mass executions in Afghanistan. Many of the women that were killed had been accused of thief and/or prostitution. Of course, they weren’t allowed to work under the Talliban regime and they were widows because the war had taken their husbands and sons. Now,, just how do think they were able to feed their children? What would you have done? Do ya think God is blaming them for bad stewardship over their bodies?

In the good ol’ US, my cousin has three girls and doing her best to make ends meet. She was happily married until her husband was killed in Iraq last year. My cousin is having to do a lot of things now that she never imagined that she would ever have to do. Life happens. Thing aren’t always as clear as they appear on paper. Social services are what they are cracked up to be either. People in desperate situations do desperate things. I’ll have to leave the judging of others to you and God because I will not go there.

As for the citation of cutting off parts of the body to avoid being thrown into hell (Matt 5:29-30), what do you propose that it means? Do you deny that our Lord is saying to get every sinful influence possible out of our lives??

I think that citation is a rather dramatic way of making a point. I don’t see it as a mandate for self-mutilation if that’s what you are asking
The fact that we are discussing what it means shows that can be differing yet valid interpertations.
And ya know, that’s the funny thing about scripture – one can selective use them to support virtually any position they want. If you doubt this, just ask the KKK

I take it to mean that we better deal with lust in any way possible. My theory is that extreme lust is a warning sign that you are either (a) allowing some mentally polluting influences into your life or (b) clear evidence that it's time to get married.

I don’t think lust is only sin in certain situation. Lust is sinful whether one is married or not. Excesses in anything (again, not just sexual excesses) are not reflective of the light and love of God.

This line of yours bothered me a lot.Some realms are not subject to rules of moderation. By this logic, a man who decides to have an affair only once every five years may not be guilty of "excessive indulgence" in adultery. Sin is sin, whether one time or a hundred.

Agreed. Extra marital affairs are sinful, whether they are one or one hundred.

PS Kat: What is the origin of your screenname? Do you raise caterpillars or something?

lol. Nope. I just enjoy the imagery of metamorphosis.
I find change to be a good thing and I prefer to see myself and as growing changing being rather than someone, something fixed in stone.

 

[indra_fanatic]

She lived in a world where this she felt that having and raising children was what expected of her by her church, her family, her environment. Ya know, she really took that being fruitful and multiplying thing to heart . Her religious beliefs did not allow for the use of birth control nor to not submit to her husband. Was she a bad christian?

Your mother, first and foremost, was a victim of legalism and, I would even say, near-cultlike beliefs. The ecclesiastical and environmental figures creating this warped doctrine in her life will be judged for their deceptive leading, and perhaps already are.

I think I acknowledged that this kind of stealing may be a gray area, but the point you may have overlooked is that no one dies through theft of foodstuffs.

If, on the other hand, your mother proposed killing and cooking one of her preexisting children in order to feed the new baby, I would be much less ambiguous in my take on her.

Recently I watched a video of mass executions in Afghanistan. Many of the women that were killed had been accused of thief and/or prostitution. Of course, they weren’t allowed to work under the Talliban regime and they were widows because the war had taken their husbands and sons. Now,, just how do think they were able to feed their children? What would you have done? Do ya think God is blaming them for bad stewardship over their bodies?

Again, these women were victims of environment (in this case, a fanatical religion that tells them, among other things, not to take any Christians or Jews as friends, that their God proclaimed Jews to be rats and apes, and that their male bretheren will receive the comforts of wide-eyed virgins no jinn has touched and handsome youths like pearls in the afterlife as reward for their battlefield prowess).

Until America is ruled by sharia, this is not completely applicable to the situation either.

People in desperate situations do desperate things. I’ll have to leave the judging of others to you and God because I will not go there.

I think that citation is a rather dramatic way of making a point.

I never said that it is our job to condemn people who have elected to undergo abortion, for we need to be witnesses and comforters to them. I merely opined that the act itself is wicked. If anything, I am judging the providers.

If you doubt this, just ask the KKK

Should we really get into all the Scriptural passages that clearly illustrate how warped the rest of the Klan's logic is?

If they don't want to believe that all mankind was created in the Lord's image, and that we are neither Jew nor Greek, free nor slave in the Lord, whose problem is that but theirs? Let them heap up judgment to their heart's content.

Lust is sinful whether one is married or not.

Scripture please? Actually I have some: 1 Cor 7: 9

What are some principles illustrating how a man and wife enjoying the gift of intimacy God has provided for them are in sin?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

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Your mother, first and foremost, was a victim of legalism and, I would even say, near-cultlike beliefs. The ecclesiastical and environmental figures creating this warped doctrine in her life will be judged for their deceptive leading, and perhaps already are.

I think I acknowledged that this kind of stealing may be a gray area, but the point you may have overlooked is that no one dies through theft of foodstuffs.

If, on the other hand, your mother proposed killing and cooking one of her preexisting children in order to feed the new baby, I would be much less ambiguous in my take on her.



Again, these women were victims of environment (in this case, a fanatical religion that tells them, among other things, not to take any Christians or Jews as friends, that their God proclaimed Jews to be rats and apes, and that their male bretheren will receive the comforts of wide-eyed virgins no jinn has touched and handsome youths like pearls in the afterlife as reward for their battlefield prowess).

Until America is ruled by sharia, this is not completely applicable to the situation either.


I never said that it is our job to condemn people who have elected to undergo abortion, for we need to be witnesses and comforters to them. I merely opined that the act itself is wicked. If anything, I am judging the providers.


Should we really get into all the Scriptural passages that clearly illustrate how warped the rest of the Klan's logic is?

If they don't want to believe that all mankind was created in the Lord's image, and that we are neither Jew nor Greek, free nor slave in the Lord, whose problem is that but theirs? Let them heap up judgment to their heart's content.


Scripture please? Actually I have some: 1 Cor 7: 9

What are some principles illustrating how a man and wife enjoying the gift of intimacy God has provided for them are in sin?

I don't understand anything that you posted and I don't have any illustrated principles either.

 

[indra_fanatic]

[/font][/size][/color]I don't understand anything that you posted and I don't have any illustrated principles either.

Come again?

I stated that neither situation directly is akin to the contemporary abortion choice, that Klan theology is not based on Scripture in any coherent way to begin with, and that I don't understand what you meant by "lust within marriage".

What do you need clarification on?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Come again?

I stated that neither situation directly is akin to the contemporary abortion choice, that Klan theology is not based on Scripture in any coherent way to begin with, and that I don't understand what you meant by "lust within marriage".

What do you need clarification on?

The examples I provided for you were in relation to your claim that stealing is always wrong. I have not addressed the topic of abortion in my replies. I was addressing your specific statements.You seem to have missed that completely.

Secondly, biblical scripture can always be selective used to support various positions. Slavery, subjugation of women and children, racial superiority, crusades, witch burnings, etc. have all used scripture to justify their existence. Now, whether you concur with specific interpretations or not, is missing the point. All of the above exists.

Thirdly, I have explained Lust complete with definitions that clearly show that it is not exclusive to sexual matters. Lust is excess in indulgence, it is not one related to sexual desire/sexual activity. All lust is sin. Period. Marriage does not exempt one from committing the sin of excess of indulgence.

Now… somehow you entirely missed the point I was making about my own mother and you made some very offensive comment about her. Then you went off on some tangent about cooking and feeding babies to children. Where that came from I have no idea and at this point I don’t think I want to pursue this any further.

Again, I have answered your questions to the best of my ability. You are disregarding my replies and pushing some anti abortion agenda that you hold. I realize that this thread deals with the topic of abortion but my replies to you have all been in relation to specific issues related to morality and lust, not abortion per se.

 

[indra_fanatic]

Kat,

Please calm down. No one is trying to attack you. I think you are reading somewhat farther into this than was intended. I conceded several posts ago that stealing to feed one's children in those circumstances was a gray area. I would have assumed that you would have considered the little discourse about your mother hypothetically feeding one of your children to another to be a wild, ridiculous story meant to illustrate a point (meaning what abortion would be tantamount to), but since you apparently did not, I will clarify that here.

I was giving my opinion that there is no logical way to read racial superiority into Scripture; I didn't mean for that to be offensive either. I think most of us would consider the KKK to be, at the minimum, a cult to begin with.

In fact, let me give you an opportunity here to explain your point of view to the fullest. Provide me some Scriptural directive that may indicate that (non-life-of-the-woman-in-danger) abortions may be permissible, and I will read it over thoroughly and judge it fairly. Deal?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

I haven’t claimed anywhere in this thread to have “scriptural directives” regarding abortion (pro or con) and certainly not any that I want you to judge. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?


Let’s see…I’ve shown you by example that there are indeed gray areas when it comes to moral absolutes regarding stealing. I’ve shown you where the bible addresses Lust and provided it’s definition in order to clarify an understanding of what lust means and why it is not specifically directed at sexual activities such as masturbation or extra marital affairs. Unfortunately folks want to misinterpret the scriptures as only referencing specific sexual behaviors. For example,you wrote,” Scripture never directly speaks of masturbation, but Jesus clearly says that anyone who has any lust in their heart is guilty of adultery and that any physical object causing one to sin must be cut out of that person's life.” I differ with your interpretation of scripture in these areas. That’s allowed. You either will or will not accept what I’ve stated and honestly either way is just fine with me.

You posed a hypothetical: “If a woman has a condition that she and her doctor knows is overwhelmingly likely to produce a miscarriage rather than a to-term pregnancy, is she at fault for trying to get pregnant? Could God hold her liable for this loss of life?

I replied “I think the entire matter is between God and the woman and that it’s absolutely none of my business. I’m not God and don’t play God on T.V. (or even on the internet). I wouldn’t attempt to pretend or guess to make decisions about what a Loving God would or would not do. I only know what I am to do. That's enough information for me.”

I still stand by that. You may enjoy hypothetical scenarios where women can be judged guilty of sin by God and you may enjoy spending your time finding scriptural support for this* but* that isn’t my thang. And why? Because I think it’s none of my business! I don’t get be the Judge or the Jury and I don’t get to play God. If I have a qualm or concern about something I take it directly to God . Works for me . Otherwise, my duty is to love God and love my neighbor, not figure out who and what God condemns and under what imaginary circumstances.
Now if you want scriptural support for that I can give it to you.

 

[indra_fanatic]

Kat, we will just have to agree to disagree then. I conceded that stealing is a gray area under those circumstances because no one dies. I asked what some of your guiding principles on abortion might be because I was interested. That is all.

 

[~SeekingTheTruth~]

Abortion is a sin. It's wrong in the eyes of God.

WIth that said - I think it's a complete waste of time for Christians to try and make laws stopping abortion.

Stopping an abortion does not bring the 'stopped' closer to God. Actually those people who are stopped are more likely to resent religion at that point and turn away from God entirely. Then what have you done? Saved them to be thrown into the fire.

Fighting to make laws against abortion is time that you could be teaching and preaching to people. Bring them to God and they won't have abortions and won't live in a way that would require them.

 

[Mashley]

The Bible doesn't clearly say abortion is wrong. God does say that he doesn't like how some of the nations sacrificed their children. I know abortion isn't sacrificing, but it's still murder.