Abortion rate at lowest point since 1976

peepnklown · Jul 22, 2005

Sycophant

You misread his post.

Natural condoms (Lambskin) are ineffective in protecting against STDs.

trunks2k · Jul 22, 2005

Sycophant said:
I don't believe this is accurate. So far as I am aware, there are no cases of HIV being tranmitted with the proper use of condoms (which is the most commonly presented arguement) - and there have been studies of their use by couples with one HIV+ partner.

Yeah, you misread my post.

Latex condoms - Good against preventing pregnancy and some STDs, especially HIV.

Natural Condoms - Good agains preventing pregnancy, not so good at protecting against STDs.

Shame on you Sycophant, you should know me better than that. I think I've posted a defense of condoms in regards to HIV protection in a few threads that you've participated in.

Corey · Jul 22, 2005

Praise2God said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8622099/
Where are the people who claimed that abortion increased during Bush's presidency?

I'm glad it's down...but you're misquoting the stat. Teenage pregnancy has risen in states that use abstinence-only sex ed. I forget if abortions have gone up or not. I did a little research a few months and can't remember what I found.

Corey · Jul 22, 2005

jsn112 said:
Well, the last time I checked abstinence is still 100% child-production proof.

Straw man.

People will have sex no matter...it's a basic biological drive...and fun to boot.

Corey · Jul 22, 2005

Holly3278 said:
Why not teach them to wait till marriage to have sex instead? Birth control is evil.

Really? Funny...I never got any Dark Side Points for using a condom.

How is birth control evil?

Holly3278 said:
Sex is intended to be open to procreation. Birth control makes sex unnatural to where it is not open to procreation.

Oh...I see. Here's the problem...this is a logical fallacy.

In any given woman, pregnancy is likely only 2-5 days out of any given menstrual cycle. That means the rest of the time, she most likely can't get preggers.

So...since the preponderance of the time women can't get pregnant, that means sex serves another purpose as well...social bonding.

IamSam52 · Jul 22, 2005

Corey said:
Straw man.

People will have sex no matter...it's a basic biological drive...and fun to boot.

Funny, that I don't see that happening in public all too often. Doesn't that indicate some sort of ability to control ones' urges?

IamSam52 · Jul 22, 2005

Corey said:
So...since the preponderance of the time women can't get pregnant, that means sex serves another purpose as well...social bonding.

Wow, I usually just talk to people to get to know them.

JimmyKoKoPop · Jul 22, 2005

because when a majority of the mothers who were looking into an abortion see their little blessing on the screen it changes their heart and most want to keep their gift.the abrtion clinics know this and will not show the baby to the woman on the screen

I hear this quoted a lot. I'd like evidence of some kind, other than hearsay. I really doubt they would refuse to show them if they asked. It sounds similar to me as the claims that a majority of women who have abortions feel massive amounts of guilt/regret/etc, which just isn't the case.

IamSam52 · Jul 22, 2005

JimmyKoKoPop said:
I hear this quoted a lot. I'd like evidence of some kind, other than hearsay. I really doubt they would refuse to show them if they asked. It sounds similar to me as the claims that a majority of women who have abortions feel massive amounts of guilt/regret/etc, which just isn't the case.
[/i]

Focus on the Family budgeted $4.2 million to provide ultrasound equipment for pregnancy centers. Their study showed that 57% of the women decide against abortion after counseling, 79% decide against after counseling that includes ultrasound. See the article at http://www.family.org/pregnancy/ultrasound/a0030349.cfm

JimmyKoKoPop · Jul 22, 2005

IamSam52 said:
Focus on the Family budgeted $4.2 million to provide ultrasound equipment for pregnancy centers. Their study showed that 57% of the women decide against abortion after counseling, 79% decide against after counseling that includes ultrasound. See the article at http://www.family.org/pregnancy/ultrasound/a0030349.cfm

Interesting.. My main point though was the inference in the original post that they have the machines, but refuse to let pregnant women see them. That is, this line:

the abrtion clinics know this and will not show the baby to the woman on the screen

That's what I had a beef with. As though places that do abortions want to do everything they can to maximize the nubmer of abortions they give. That's what I had difficulty believing.

As far as that survey goes, there is something misleading...

These same centers reported that an average of 28 percent (and a median of 20 percent) of clients faced with a positive pregnancy test initially are abortion-minded.

Bolding mine. What they don't mention is how many women *initially* want an abortion, but may change their mind before getting one, WITHOUT seeing an ultrasound. This is an important control step their survey avoided, likely in order to maximize the numbers they way they want them to be.

I don't doubt that some women would be convinced to not get an abortion by seeing an ultrasound, however.

IamSam52 · Jul 22, 2005

JimmyKoKoPop said:
Interesting.. My main point though was the inference in the original post that they have the machines, but refuse to let pregnant women see them. That is, this line:

That's what I had a beef with. As though places that do abortions want to do everything they can to maximize the nubmer of abortions they give. That's what I had difficulty believing.

As far as that survey goes, there is something misleading...

Bolding mine. What they don't mention is how many women *initially* want an abortion, but may change their mind before getting one, WITHOUT seeing an ultrasound. This is an important control step their survey avoided, likely in order to maximize the numbers they way they want them to be.

I don't doubt that some women would be convinced to not get an abortion by seeing an ultrasound, however.

I am sorry I misunderstood your post.

I think the problem at these clinics is that they don't want to 1) take the time 2) have someone who has already made a decision to abort suddenly be conflicted over a picture 3) to protect their own interests 4) to protect the feelings of the staff.

Number one is pretty easy to understand. The clinic is set up to make money performing the abortions, not giving ultrasounds. Giving the woman time to look at an ultrasound is a waste of time and unnecessary. Why would an adult woman making a voluntary choice doesn't need to be second guessed by the clinic?

Number two is about a bias the abortion industry has toward the issue of emotional trauma after abortion. If a woman has decided to terminate a pregnancy setting her up to feel conflicted about the decision isn't helpful.

Number three if the Focus on the Family survey is correct (I admit that there is likely some bias in the way it was done) the clinic is cutting their own revenue opportunities dramatically by showing women the ultrasound.

Number four, if you worked in a clinic like that you would have to agree that abortion is a morally sound option for a woman. You cannot do that job and think that aborting babies is murder. Having even a third of the women come in look at an ultrasound and change their minds is likely to cause anyone to question their belief that abortion is a moral way to control reproduction.

I don't mean to imply that abortion providers want to encourage unwanted pregnancies so that they have revenue. I do think that once a woman has picked up the phone and made the appointment, they don't feel obligated to discourage them from aborting.

Sycophant · Jul 23, 2005

trunks2k said:
Yeah, you misread my post.

Latex condoms - Good against preventing pregnancy and some STDs, especially HIV.

Natural Condoms - Good agains preventing pregnancy, not so good at protecting against STDs.

Shame on you Sycophant, you should know me better than that. I think I've posted a defense of condoms in regards to HIV protection in a few threads that you've participated in.

Beg your pardon -- I would tend to consider latex to be 'natural'... And things like polyurethane to be unsafe...

That, and the oh so frequently quoted idea that the 'holes' in latex condoms are bigger than HIV pathogens, led me to believe that you might have fallen for some of the disinformation (as taught in abstinence only programs).

That... And I was hurried and stuff -- baby started to demand attention (as he does)

Sycophant · Jul 23, 2005

Abortion and stuff...

Here's how it works in New Zealand -- It is only legal before a certain point (16 weeks? I can remember for sure). Any woman that wants to have an abortion, must undergo counselling and a stand down period (of about a week I think) before the procedure can be performed.

That seems entirely reasonable to me. People aren't just leaping into it. The service exists and is safe, so people are looking for other options.

I believe any woman of any age can seek this in total confidentality.

Furthermore, we have family planning services here that are available free and confidentially. Young people can get advice, tests and other help without worry about privacy. They are treated professionally and honestly. It is good.

JimmyKoKoPop · Jul 23, 2005

Sycophant said:
Abortion and stuff...

Here's how it works in New Zealand -- It is only legal before a certain point (16 weeks? I can remember for sure). Any woman that wants to have an abortion, must undergo counselling and a stand down period (of about a week I think) before the procedure can be performed.

That seems entirely reasonable to me. People aren't just leaping into it. The service exists and is safe, so people are looking for other options.

I believe any woman of any age can seek this in total confidentality.

Furthermore, we have family planning services here that are available free and confidentially. Young people can get advice, tests and other help without worry about privacy. They are treated professionally and honestly. It is good.

I'd like to know what the counseling is like. Do you know anything more about it? Sounds interesting.

Sycophant · Jul 23, 2005

JimmyKoKoPop said:
I'd like to know what the counseling is like. Do you know anything more about it? Sounds interesting.

I don't - as obviously I have never been part of it. But I will see what I can find out in the next couple of days.

trunks2k · Jul 24, 2005

Sycophant said:
Beg your pardon -- I would tend to consider latex to be 'natural'... And things like polyurethane to be unsafe...

How is latex natural? It's a synthetic rubber (though it may have natural sources, it takes a lot of processing to turn it into latex).

Out of curiosity, why do you consider polyurethane as unsafe?

Sycophant · Jul 24, 2005

trunks2k said:
How is latex natural? It's a synthetic rubber (though it may have natural sources, it takes a lot of processing to turn it into latex).

Out of curiosity, why do you consider polyurethane as unsafe?

I dunno.. I was tired... Latex is of natural origin, or at least somewhat.

As for polyurethane, that should read "unnatural" - I was clearly not working correctly in the head. Or something.

JimmyKoKoPop · Jul 24, 2005

Just an FYI. Latex today is not pulled from trees, but some plants sap is a type of latex. Chicle is a type of latex, and used to be used as a base of gum for instance.

I don't think 'natural' latex was ever used for condoms.

Abortion rate at lowest point since 1976

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