abortion poll

[benedictaoo]

It is even worse now with a few American states voting to legalise doctor-assisted suicide. Which, usually, is the doctor injecting the patient with a lethal drug cocktail. Which is effectively the doctor just killing the person with the person's consent.

Now they write a lethal scrip and you take it when you feel you are ready.

 

[reneeville]

God alone gives life... and God alone takes away life. For man to interfere with the life making and natural dying processes is interfering with God.

is abortion a sin?

(this isn't a trick question. choose the option you most agree with. This poll isn't about politics or laws or support services for women. It's a simple question: do you think that there's something wrong with abortion? or is it alright? should we encourage or discourage women from getting them? - because of course it's a sin, it shouldn't be encouraged. Does it result in a murder of an innocent life?)

ALL OBOB members please vote

 

[Gwendolyn]

Now they write a lethal scrip and you take it when you feel you are ready.

Wow.

That is really upsetting to me.

 

[benedictaoo]

yeah, just think if you never feel ready and someone in your family says you are.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica,

I usually stay away from this topic as it causes people so much stress and is such a grave issue. Unfortunatly, abortion a reality in the world we live in and must be addressed, and you asked the question so well I think you're thread will go somewhere.

So, here goes:

1. Abortion is always a sin. It is a tragedy and a terrible thing.
2. We should always advise against abortion to any woman who would ask our opinions on the matter. We should be supportive of women in our households and communities in an effort to end abortion. We should also encourage the men who got the women in these situations to do their part by the child she bears and take on the responsibility of their actions. The reason people have abortion is rooted in disobeying the commandment from Christ to "Love one another."
3. Abortion is murder of an unborn child in the most realistic sense. However, most of the population is unaware of that fact. As unaware of it as they are of Christ or reality in general. There is one truth, one God, one Christ, one creation.

That being said we all share the human condition of uncertainty. We are self aware. We understand we exist and we understand we are going to die. We are all equal in dignity and must be afforded the dignity of the individual person regardless of the stage of life.

Here lies the problem. Given that our political system espouses democracy, equality, and liberty for all, it is impossible to dictate to any individual what they must espouse by faith as reality. So we have many different creeds, philosophies, and convictions about what is real and what is not in our land. All of these different opinions have merit in their own right as pertains to the human condition and are respected as authentic in our system. So the tool we all have in common to further our beliefs is the podium of free speech. Ideological battles are never won but through change of heart. People do not espouse ideas they believe are wrong. Therefore our arena in our Catholic position is not legislation but debate of the issues and our example.

Example plays the biggest role in combating abortion. We can complain that Roe vs Wade stands in mockery of our theology or we can show the nation that even though Roe vs Wade is upheld abortions need not come of it. The reason there are abortions is because people get them. The reasons people get them are rooted in sin. Sin comes from lack of love and lack of faith. Abortions happen in the strictest sense becasue we are not doing our job as Christians in bringing the light of Christ to the world.

If you ever get a chance to visit the Jefferson Memorial in our capital you will read this inscribed on the wall:

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." Thomas Jefferson

People respond to reason. Currently the women and doctors who keep the torch of abortion alive in our country do not see the reason to extinguish it.

David

I see what you are saying David..
I know that we live in a society with many different, and often conflicting views, and we can't just force people to believe something we believe. However, I think we should never say that "everything is true" like some people do. We need to stand by the truth. You said we can do this through example.. and of course, we can, but I'm also wondering:

by not criminalizing abortion.. are we not making it easier for women to get one? - and doesn't this mean that MORE would get abortions, simply because they can? not all women get abortions out of health concerns or financial reasons... many just don't want "another baby". The reason they get abortions is because they're told it's oki, it's just a bunch of cells.. if it was illegal, wouldn't more people get the message we're trying to carry across?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

well thanks for voting everyone

it seems that most of us are against abortion! 1 is for, and 1 is unsure.

 

[CraigBaugher]

The problem is, most women having abortions are not religious, and their first encounter with religion is by a group of people yelling at them calling them a murderer. Right, wrong, or in different... this is typically the case.

We attack, instead of showing love.
We try to save the fetus before we try and save the woman.

What if we yelled, "JESUS LOVES YOU!!! HE REALLY REALLY DOES!!! CAN WE TALK FOR JUST A SECOND?"

Then talk to them about Jesus loving them, and how he wants to save them. How we are there to help them, to love them, to be there for them. Ingoring the fetus, and concentrating on the mother, and by touching the mother, I feel we would have much greater chance of saving both. But I would NEVER stand and call anyone a murderer and expect them to really listen to me. I cannot believe you think you could stop someone by doing that either.

See... Everything starts with the right attitude and faith!!! If we have faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains, so stopping a woman wanting an abortion should be nothing. But first we have to BELIEVE we are going to stop everone going in, and with that FAITH comes, respect, trust, gratitude, humbleness, joy, and love. So if expect POSITIVE RESULTS, we must be positive in our approach!

"Hi miss... I just want you to know I love you, and I am here for you just as Jesus loves you and here for you. Can we talk a minute... just one minute..." If she stops we got her... and if she continues to walk, and we treat her with love and respect, and trust that Jesus will finish what we started and stop her anytime in the process right up to, but before the actual abortion is conducted. "The Lord Your God will be with you, and He will be talking with you through your subconscious mind. Please listen, and I and my organization will be here to help you all through your pregnancy and afterwards. We WILL NOT ABANDON YOU! Not ever! So can we please talk..." and if not... "please listen to that little voice in your head... for it will be Your Lord God talking to you..."

 

[benedictaoo]

Mmmmm. I have never known any protest groups call them murders. I have seen them pray for the women and do tell her Jesus loves her.

In fact, real life Roe says that is what changed her heart and mind when she worked at the abortion mill. It was the Christian protesters becuase it was her screaming and spitting on them and they would not react, just say Jesus loved her anyways.

 

[benedictaoo]

well thanks for voting everyone

it seems that most of us are against abortion! 1 is for, and 1 is unsure.

so you can see why it's just baffling that we have them subtly defending it in many different ways.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Craig, good point

from what I've seen of pro life people though, many of them do treat the women with love and don't call them murderers.. well at least the ones I've encountered do not. Some women have even changed their minds as a result

 

[MoNiCa4316]

so you can see why it's just baffling that we have them subtly defending it in many different ways.

we also see that only 1 person on this forum supports abortion..

so - I'm not sure what that means. Either we're misinterepreting their arguments. Or, they are against abortion but just don't see the point of criminalizing it. I may disagree.. but it doesn't mean that they're PRO choice?

 

[benedictaoo]

we also see that only 1 person on this forum supports abortion..

so - I'm not sure what that means. Either we're misinterepreting their arguments. Or, they are against abortion but just don't see the point of criminalizing it. I may disagree.. but it doesn't mean that they're PRO choice?

Monica, you have to read the thread. i think you are missing some info here.

In another thread right now abortion doctors are being defended as "good natured" peeps just trying to help out ole Mom and that abortion is done for the good of a mother. If you are pro life, how do you reconcile that opinion?

and also it's said we should cut them some slack because, you know, malpratice insurance is just so high to practice real medicne.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I see what you're saying, but aren't those people just trying to clarify the doctors' own perspective, while still disagreeing with them?

I mean..let's say I knew an abortion doctor, and he said that he is just helping the women.. what would be wrong with saying: "he wants to help the women; of course that's not real help but sin and murder. but in his eyes, he's doing a loving thing". I think that's what the people in the thread are trying to say?

 

[benedictaoo]

I see what you're saying, but aren't those people just trying to clarify the doctors' own perspective, while still disagreeing with them?

I mean..let's say I knew an abortion doctor, and he said that he is just helping the women.. what would be wrong with saying: "he wants to help the women; of course that's not real help but sin and murder. but in his eyes, he's doing a loving thing". I think that's what the people in the thread are trying to say?

mmmm, I doubt it. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49588149&postcount=97

follow the thread.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think I just got confused as to why we're always discussing each other here at OBOB, instead of abortion that's why I made this thread, to show that people here do see themselves as pro life, so at least we have that in common.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

mmmm, I doubt it. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49588149&postcount=97

follow the thread.

it certainly does sound kind of like pro-choice so I see where you're coming from, but keep this sentence in mind:

"misguided in their principles".

that makes the post a lot like what I was saying too, that the doctors are wrong but don't know they're wrong.

btw, I don't know how much they realize what they're doing is sinful.. maybe they've just convinced themselves it's only "a bunch of cells". I'm sure if you perform many abortions you'll try to rationalize it somehow. And that's sad and horrible. But - they do somehow think they're doing the right. It isn't right. But they think so.

as for specific people at OBOB, I really don't know their hearts and I don't really see that much point in discussing them hmmm

 

[benedictaoo]

I think I just got confused as to why we're always discussing each other here at OBOB, instead of abortion that's why I made this thread, to show that people here do see themselves as pro life, so at least we have that in common.

I can only be so direct with out having some one report me but here goes... NO, some ppl say they are pro life so they can gain trust to push a liberal agenda.

It's not that hard to recognize. They will make some off the wall statement like malpractice insurance is just so high, thus they aren't monsters... and when you ask for clarification- like, "are you defending them???" you get more rhetoric and anecdotal stories that totally have nothing to do with a direct request for clarification.

 

[Fish and Bread]

is abortion a sin?

Yes.

 

[benedictaoo]

it certainly does sound kind of like pro-choice so I see where you're coming from, but keep this sentence in mind:

"misguided in their principles".

that makes the post a lot like what I was saying too, that the doctors are wrong but don't know they're wrong.

btw, I don't know how much they realize what they're doing is sinful.. maybe they've just convinced themselves it's only "a bunch of cells". I'm sure if you perform many abortions you'll try to rationalize it somehow. And that's sad and horrible. But - they do somehow think they're doing the right. It isn't right. But they think so.

as for specific people at OBOB, I really don't know their hearts and I don't really see that much point in discussing them hmmm

Follow the thread where it's been explained that this view is not that of the Church and the dude claims to be Catholic...

and I am not judging anyone here. I am judging the contents of the posts they write.

You may not realize but subtle posts like that, do have an effect on ppl and it need to be exposed.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I don't know.. I tend to think that instead of 'exposing people' we could just be good witnesses and speak for the rights of the unborn.. if we all do this, we'll have more influence than any pro-choicers cause we'll be the majority here at OBOB.
But to be honest..I'm very, very uncertain about calling some pro-choice when they're saying they're pro-life. Because.. it's very easy to misinterpret a post and read all kinds of things into it. I'm sure someone could do that with my posts too, and come up with all sorts of ideas..
I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, simply that I don't know, and I dont think I can know.
I'm also not sure that we should spend time trying to determine what others believe, but simply proclaim what we believe and pray for people who have been deceived..