Abortion = Murder ?

[Marek]

I doubt that I've come up with the perfect proof that shows that abortion is equally as wrong as murder. What do all you pro-choicers say about this argument?

 

[Spyr]

I doubt that I've come up with the perfect proof that shows that abortion is equally as wrong as murder. What do all you pro-choicers say about this argument?

I've always thought it a waste of time for us to be stressing over the subject. From what I understand dead babies go straight to heaven. If that's the case then I would have liked to have been aborted and I'm not joking.

 

[ASLER86]

If the defect is so severe that they cannot enjoy any goods of life, then I would agree that abortion is acceptable.

And if the doctors are wrong?

I have a cousin who, because of complications during the pregnancy, was born with water on the brain, so he is brain damaged. Should he have been aborted?

And I'm a twin who was born two months early, and my mom had to be put on bedrest just to carry my sister and I to that point...should they have advised selective reproduction to ensure that at least one of us would make it?

I recently read a story of a set of quadruplets....they advised selective reproduction for the family because they said they wouldn't all live anyway...but all four of them are now happy and healthy.

Another family was told to abort their son because he would be a vegetable...but they carried him to term and now he is anything but.

Doctors can be wrong you know.

 

[Marek]

And if the doctors are wrong?

I have a cousin who, because of complications during the pregnancy, was born with water on the brain, so he is brain damaged. Should he have been aborted?

And I'm a twin who was born two months early, and my mom had to be put on bedrest just to carry my sister and I to that point...should they have advised selective reproduction to ensure that at least one of us would make it?

I recently read a story of a set of quadruplets....they advised selective reproduction for the family because they said they wouldn't all live anyway...but all four of them are now happy and healthy.

Another family was told to abort their son because he would be a vegetable...but they carried him to term and now he is anything but.

Doctors can be wrong you know.

Clearly you and the rest of these children should not have been aborted. You and they all the capacity for good. I stated that if there was no possibility for this, then it would be permissable for the child to be aborted. Clearly this was not the case.

I realize that doctors can make mistakes, which is why I feel that there would need to be indisputable evidence that shows that the child will have no future of consciousness, or at least good consciousness. Obviously, this would rarely be the case, which is why I feel that abortion in these cases should be very rare.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I once read a story about a baby that was found to have no brain while she was in the womb, her mother refused to abort her, and at 9 months gave birth to her. She had setbacks but there was no way to tell that she had only ribbons of brain, she went to school, plays sports, and does anything you or I would do, what do you think, If you were told that your fetus had no brain would you agree that an abortion is nessesary?
I will try to find this story on the internet, if I can;t find it there I will find the book I read it out of(it's a book of true stories) On top of that she is not the only one that functions well without a brain it has been found that poeple holding highly intelectual jobs have only ceribral fluid and specks of brain stem in there head. In the same book of stories there was a woman who was told that her beby had stopped developing in the womb, she was told abortion was her only option, she refused and her beby started to develop 3 months later, she was born 3 months late in the same state as a healthy newborn(9 month pregnancy). I don't agree with abortion under any cicumstance myself. My mother was supposed to die giving birth to my brother, they are both now, alive and well, praise God! God bless everyone here, and have a nice day!

 

[Marek]

I once read a story about a baby that was found to have no brain while she was in the womb, her mother refused to abort her, and at 9 months gave birth to her. She had setbacks but there was no way to tell that she had only ribbons of brain, she went to school, plays sports, and does anything you or I would do, what do you think, If you were told that your fetus had no brain would you agree that an abortion is nessesary?

In no case is an abortion completely necessary. The child can always be given a chance. Clearly, the child in this case must have had some sort of brain. I don't believe a human could live on their own, much less attend school without one. Again, I said if there were irrefutable evidence that this child would have no conscious future, then abortion could be an option. Obviously, this was not the case.

I will try to find this story on the internet, if I can;t find it there I will find the book I read it out of(it's a book of true stories) On top of that she is not the only one that functions well without a brain it has been found that poeple holding highly intelectual jobs have only ceribral fluid and specks of brain stem in there head. In the same book of stories there was a woman who was told that her beby had stopped developing in the womb, she was told abortion was her only option, she refused and her beby started to develop 3 months later, she was born 3 months late in the same state as a healthy newborn(9 month pregnancy). I don't agree with abortion under any cicumstance myself. My mother was supposed to die giving birth to my brother, they are both now, alive and well, praise God! God bless everyone here, and have a nice day!

I don't agree with abortion either, yet in the case where the child will have no future, abortion should be an option. Obviously, doctors can make mistakes, but as in nearly all health issues, they should be trusted.

This is all a fairly insignificant aspect of this arguement though. I have yet to see any good responses to it as a whole. Have I converted all you pro-choicers?

 

[tcampen]

People throw the term "murder" around to make a point, but "murder" has a very specific meaning. It is not just the "taking of an innocent life," but also requires malice and aforethought (meaning deliberate). While an abortion is deliberate, it does not contain malice, which is the desire to take the life without legal justification along with a desire to cause the other to suffer. In fact, there are a number of methods of "taking innocent human life" that range from capital murder case, all the way down to a misdemeanor (vehicular manslaughter). So please use the right terms to mean what you say.

Yes, murder is a legal term, for which abortion does not legally apply. Now if anyone wants to say that it should be considered murder, that's a different story. But attempting to change the actual definition of words to suit one's own beliefs doesn't make it so. Let's engage in some honest discussion.

 

[Archivist]

On top of that she is not the only one that functions well without a brain it has been found that poeple holding highly intelectual jobs have only ceribral fluid and specks of brain stem in there head.

Most of these people have managed to get elected to public office!

 

[Spyr]

People throw the term "murder" around to make a point, but "murder" has a very specific meaning. It is not just the "taking of an innocent life," but also requires malice and aforethought (meaning deliberate). While an abortion is deliberate, it does not contain malice, which is the desire to take the life without legal justification along with a desire to cause the other to suffer. In fact, there are a number of methods of "taking innocent human life" that range from capital murder case, all the way down to a misdemeanor (vehicular manslaughter). So please use the right terms to mean what you say.

Yes, murder is a legal term, for which abortion does not legally apply. Now if anyone wants to say that it should be considered murder, that's a different story. But attempting to change the actual definition of words to suit one's own beliefs doesn't make it so. Let's engage in some honest discussion.

Well said!

 

[Marek]

People throw the term "murder" around to make a point, but "murder" has a very specific meaning. It is not just the "taking of an innocent life," but also requires malice and aforethought (meaning deliberate). While an abortion is deliberate, it does not contain malice, which is the desire to take the life without legal justification along with a desire to cause the other to suffer. In fact, there are a number of methods of "taking innocent human life" that range from capital murder case, all the way down to a misdemeanor (vehicular manslaughter). So please use the right terms to mean what you say.

Yes, murder is a legal term, for which abortion does not legally apply. Now if anyone wants to say that it should be considered murder, that's a different story. But attempting to change the actual definition of words to suit one's own beliefs doesn't make it so. Let's engage in some honest discussion.

I'm sorry if there was some confusion caused by the title of the thread, but I never stated that abortion is murder or that abortion should be considered murder. All that I am attempting to show is that moral reasons for murder being an illegal act in our society is equivalent to the repercussions of abortion. If this were true, shouldn't abortion be held at the same moral level as murder? As far as I can see, no one has been able to answer this question for me. Also, I haven't seen any pro-choicer defend themselves against this argument.

Initially, as I stated in post #3, I wanted to use the term murder to describe any unjust killing of a person, which is basically the legal definition of murder, but it seems that we can use the exact definition without taking anything away from the argument. Debating these insignificant aspects is a waste of time and does not contribute anything to the discussion. I'm sorry if my poor terminology led to any confusion in understanding my points. That was not my intent. I tried to lay out my argument as simply as possible such that we could avoid these issues and get to the main points.

 

[Ledifni]

I once read a story about a baby that was found to have no brain while she was in the womb, her mother refused to abort her, and at 9 months gave birth to her. She had setbacks but there was no way to tell that she had only ribbons of brain, she went to school, plays sports, and does anything you or I would do, what do you think, If you were told that your fetus had no brain would you agree that an abortion is nessesary?
I will try to find this story on the internet, if I can;t find it there I will find the book I read it out of(it's a book of true stories) On top of that she is not the only one that functions well without a brain it has been found that poeple holding highly intelectual jobs have only ceribral fluid and specks of brain stem in there head. In the same book of stories there was a woman who was told that her beby had stopped developing in the womb, she was told abortion was her only option, she refused and her beby started to develop 3 months later, she was born 3 months late in the same state as a healthy newborn(9 month pregnancy). I don't agree with abortion under any cicumstance myself. My mother was supposed to die giving birth to my brother, they are both now, alive and well, praise God! God bless everyone here, and have a nice day!

Have fun finding that book. If it actually exists, it's a bunch of fabrication.

It may seem unreasonable of me to immediately dismiss your alleged evidence before I've even seen it, but remember that I would also categorically ignore any "evidence" that purported to show that squares are in fact circles.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Most of these people have managed to get elected to public office!

LOLRF

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Have fun finding that book. If it actually exists, it's a bunch of fabrication.

It may seem unreasonable of me to immediately dismiss your alleged evidence before I've even seen it, but remember that I would also categorically ignore any "evidence" that purported to show that squares are in fact circles.

O.K. I found it.
Title: Baby miracles
Author:Brad Steiger, and Sherry Hanson Steiger
They are stories found thru personal research.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Here is some more info.
http:www.adam.com/democontent/hie/ency/article/001571.htm

 

[Ledifni]

O.K. I found it.
Title: Baby miracles
Author:Brad Steiger, and Sherry Hanson Steiger
They are stories found thru personal research.

I haven't read the book so I can't confirm whether the stories you relate are in it. If they are, then I can say with perfect confidence that Mr. and Mrs. Steiger are gullible fools.

The link you provided is about hydrocephalus -- an accumulation of spinal fluid in the brain. This can cause brain damage but is not brain damage in and of itself, and thus hydrocephalus can be treated and a person who is born with it can grow up to be normal -- if there was no resultant brain damage. But if a person is missing most of their brain mass, they don't think. Period. When somebody writes a story about a person who doesn't have a brain but is perfectly functional, I know that that person is either a fiction author, a liar, or badly mistaken.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Two words: ectopic pregnancy

Not allowing abortion in this case is murder.

 

[Spyr]

I haven't read the book so I can't confirm whether the stories you relate are in it. If they are, then I can say with perfect confidence that Mr. and Mrs. Steiger are gullible fools.

The link you provided is about hydrocephalus -- an accumulation of spinal fluid in the brain. This can cause brain damage but is not brain damage in and of itself, and thus hydrocephalus can be treated and a person who is born with it can grow up to be normal -- if there was no resultant brain damage. But if a person is missing most of their brain mass, they don't think. Period. When somebody writes a story about a person who doesn't have a brain but is perfectly functional, I know that that person is either a fiction author, a liar, or badly mistaken.

Sorry jesusfreak, I have to agree.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I haven't read the book so I can't confirm whether the stories you relate are in it. If they are, then I can say with perfect confidence that Mr. and Mrs. Steiger are gullible fools.

The link you provided is about hydrocephalus -- an accumulation of spinal fluid in the brain. This can cause brain damage but is not brain damage in and of itself, and thus hydrocephalus can be treated and a person who is born with it can grow up to be normal -- if there was no resultant brain damage. But if a person is missing most of their brain mass, they don't think. Period. When somebody writes a story about a person who doesn't have a brain but is perfectly functional, I know that that person is either a fiction author, a liar, or badly mistaken.

O.K. I didn't say it was true, I just said I read it somewhere.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Sorry jesusfreak, I have to agree.

Quite alright, I'm not defending it under a personal conviction, I just read it in a book that is supposed to be based on fact. You guys can draw your own conclution