Abortion- is it wrong?

GirdYourLoins said:

Would you tell someone who had a miscarriage they hadnt lost a baby as its life hadnt begun?

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I suppose they could say the baby was alive if they wanted her, or just a blob of tissue if they didn't. That's a pretty severe relativism though.

Lost4words said:

Protect her life? The baby didnt ask to get conceived either. You would choose to murder a baby to protect someones feelings!

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A victim of rape should never have to carry the fetus to term. That should be her choice.

Lost4words said:

How death? You were on about rape?

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You haven’t read what I’ve been posting. Anytime a woman is pregnant there is a chance that she won’t survive. Try reading my post 106.

Archivist said:

You haven’t read what I’ve been posting. Anytime a woman is pregnant there is a chance that she won’t survive. Try reading my post 106.

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Let God's will be done then..

Lost4words said:

Let God's will be done then..

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So if someone pulls a gun on you you shouldn’t defend yourself? Let’s God’s will be done.

Archivist said:

A pregnant woman has to deal with weight gain, morning sickness, and--worse--possible diabetes. There is the pain and scaring that accompanies childbirth. Pregnancies always come with risks. Women die in childbirth. So aborting following a rape isn't just "adding another wrong." It can be seen as self defense.

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Self defence against an innocent baby who did not choose to come into the world. You say it should be murdered to make the womans life easy etc. This is not God's way.

Archivist said:

So if someone pulls a gun on you you shouldn’t defend yourself? Let’s God’s will be done.

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I never seen an unborn baby with a gun!

Lost4words said:

Self defence against an innocent baby who did not choose to come into the world. You say it should be murdered to make the womans life easy etc. This is not God's way.

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I see. Possibly saving her life is just making her life easy.

Lost4words said:

I never seen an unborn baby with a gun!

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So it is ok for you to kill that person who pulls a gun on you? Just don’t have an abortion if you are a rape victim.

thelord's_pearl said:

I ask yet another difficult question for me (I've never had an abortion), but let's look at a scenario where if someone is raped by someone they're not interested in or attracted to, that would be horrible, horrifying and disgusting, in that case I would want an abortion. is abortion killing/murder? is the answer obvious? If the answer is clearly yes, that abortion is killing/murder, that is just so horrible! So God would not allow it in this case, why not? Thank you all for your help

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I wish I could find again the list of famous people who would in this modern age been aborted and how th eworld would have lost amazing people.

Teh bottom line is this; does the bible teach that life begins at conception or no! If the answer is yes then to intentionally take the life of that fetus is murder. If the answer is no, then it is not murder. I see the bible clearly saying that life begins at conception.

Yes rape and incest and other sexual crimes that result in an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy is horrible. But adding murder to the conscience of the woman and adding sin upon sin is not a rational answer! With care from teh church and sound counsel, that woman can recover from the horros of the rape and loving that baby is a wonderfully redemptive thing!

Even the Mosaic Law said if a woman was hurt during pregnancy and the baby suffered harm or death, the assailant would have to pay the price.

Jonathan1303 said:

I have to strongly disagree with what you are saying here.

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I am a bit surprised, and saddened by that...

So the woman´s physical and mental health means nothing in God´s eyes?

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Of course God cares! And so do I!

Just because something can´t be proven it can´t be ignored. How can you ever 100% say if someone is mentally ill? You can?t in 99% of the cases.

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Which is one of the reasons I see way too much potential for women faking mental illness just to get rid of an unwanted child! Thank you for making my argument for me.

What if the mother commited suicide if she werenßt allowed to abort? Does that solve anything?

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And what if the woman committed suicide BECAUSE she had an abortion? Are we to kill everyone that may, or may not, be a factor in someone else committing suicide? Why not just kill everybody before they get in their cars to drive to work in the morning, because they might, or might not, cause a fatal accident? RED HERRING.

Also if you just legally forbid abortions, guess what happens: They are done illegally, the numbers of abortions don´t usually go up when legalizing abortions but stay the same. So there is no reason to illegalize abortions again.

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I would like to see reliable statistics to back up your first statement there. Regardless, your last argument holds no water. We make things illegal with the hope of deterring harmful behavior, true, but should we just legalize everything that laws are unable to deter? Should we legalize felons conceal and carrying guns just because the law doesn't deter their behavior? It also doesn't seem to deter pedophiles that their behavior is illegal...

I won´t even bother to say that a woman can do whatever she wants with her own body and life. The man´s life wouldn´t be affected at all most times but it´s a huge deal for the woman, so she should decide on her own, buit i know you won´t agree with such a equalistic statement.

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Now we come to the real issue that drives this debate... are the unborn a human being with rights or are they just a part of a woman's body? This is THE foundational question. I tried to bring this up in post #20... here is part of what I wrote there (with some small additions):

At what point does a human zygote cell become a human being? 1) At conception? 2) When it is embedded in the wall of a woman's womb (5-6 days after conception)? 3) First heartbeat (about 5-6 weeks*)? 4) The development of a brain and nervous system, enabling a nescient consciousness with the ability to move and feel (about 8 weeks*)? 5) A later time in the womb (please indicate approximately which week of pregnancy)? At birth? Or sometime after birth? Please provide Biblical and scientific reasons for your answer.

I think the best balance between science and Scripture is found in saying "no later than option 4". In Luke 1, Elizabeth is 6 months pregnant with John the Baptist when he leaps in her womb "for joy", a very human emotion, in response to Mary's greeting. So, biblically (could reference other Scriptures about life in the womb, but this one gives us a time stamp), a zygote becomes a human being sometime BEFORE the 6th month of pregnancy. Scientifically, Scripturally, and philosophically, the beginning of consciousness is very important; and morally, the ability of that consciousness to experience pain during an abortion procedure is also very important. I feel pretty confident in that position... what's yours?

* weeks from last menstruation

Greetings
Jonathan

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Looking forward to your reply;
Michael

Archivist said:

So it is ok for you to kill that person who pulls a gun on you? Just don’t have an abortion if you are a rape victim.

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Murdering an unborn baby is not God's way.

Lost4words said:

Murdering an unborn baby is not God's way.

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But abortion isn’t murder. Murder is legal term that requires an illegal killing with malice aforethought.

Oh, are you saying that killing someone who pulls a gun on you is God’s way?

Archivist said:

But abortion isn’t murder. Murder is legal term that requires an illegal killing with malice aforethought.

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Killing of a life, a human life, a baby is murder. You cant wrap it up in fancy words and claim otherwise my friend.

Lost4words said:

Killing of a life, a human life, a baby is murder. You cant wrap it up in fancy words and claim otherwise my friend.

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Killing to protect ones own life is not murder. You can say what you want, you would be wrong.

Archivist said:

Killing to protect ones own life is not murder. You can say what you want, you would be wrong.

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Let's say you're right for a moment, protecting one's life is a justified reason to kill (I won't argue that, but some might). How about killing a child because they are too expensive? Maybe it's ok if the parent feels they aren't ready to be the child's parent? Maybe the parent is depressed... then it would be perfectly ok to off the little brat for making things tougher on poor depressed mom, wouldn't it? Maybe mom has another mental illness, so to protect her frayed sanity the decides to dismember her still conscious infant... awesome job, mom!!! Right? Or maybe the parents just decide they don't want the child for some random, unknown reason, so they sell off the child's body parts to further medical research, and make a good profit in the bargain! Perfectly acceptable, right?

My point is, the vast majority of abortions in America are for these types of reasons. If it is wrong once the child is born, it is wrong before the child is born.