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Abortion in the case of disability

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JoelM

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The practice of letting disabled or deformed babies die of exposure shortly after birth used to be common in Europe.

Martin Luther denounced children and adults with mental retardation as "filled with Satan." Luther advised that children with severe mental retardation should be drowned because they are ". . . a mass of flesh with no soul. For it is the Devil’s power that he corrupts people who have reason and souls when he possesses them. The Devil sits in such changelings where their souls should have been."

Thus, abortion in the case of disability should be permissible from the classical Lutheran viewpoint.
 

Ave Maria

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The practice of letting disabled or deformed babies die of exposure shortly after birth used to be common in Europe.

Martin Luther denounced children and adults with mental retardation as "filled with Satan." Luther advised that children with severe mental retardation should be drowned because they are ". . . a mass of flesh with no soul. For it is the Devil’s power that he corrupts people who have reason and souls when he possesses them. The Devil sits in such changelings where their souls should have been."

Thus, abortion in the case of disability should be permissible from the classical Lutheran viewpoint.

Well, it certainly isn't permissible from the Catholic point of view. Besides that, Luther was judged to be a heretic by the Catholic Church and as far as I know, the Catholic Church has not taken away this judgment.

But let's get to the issue at hand. Should an unborn child be aborted due to mental or physical disability? I say no. And to sum up my reasons why, I will quote from a website:

WHAT IF THE BABY IS DEFORMED?

As shocking a reality as this is, abortion advocates would have you believe that putting a child to death is an acceptable solution to that child's physical or mental disability. In much the same way that they argue for aborting children who might grow up in poverty, abortion advocates also argue for the right to abort children who might grow up with a disability, as if disease or handicap somehow strips a person of their right to live and relegates them to a life of misery. Such a suggestion is barbaric and inhumane and has no place in a just society. There are children of all ages, and adults too, who are alive today and are living through all manner of disease and disability. Do these physical limitations make them less than human? Is killing everyone who is sick really an acceptable way to treat sickness?


The only reason anyone can suggest for children before birth what they would never suggest after birth is that they are again assuming what they have not proven. Anyone who argues that abortion is a necessary safeguard against a life of suffering and disability is assuming that the unborn child is not yet a living human being. But this is exactly the point that they must prove before they can even begin to make such claims. Disability isn't the issue, it's humanity. We do not kill people for their disabilities, period. Therefore, unless we're not human beings before we're born, our disabilities should no more disqualify us from life before birth than they do after birth.


Furthermore, this pressure to abort handicapped babies is built largely on conjecture, on the mere "likelihood" that a child has some kind of disability. Often, the tests prove wrong, and more often still, these children, if allowed to live, end up with lives of joy and happiness that far exceeds those of their "more healthy" peers. Suffering and hardship are not bad things. They are means to a greater end, a crucial part of the human journey. Anyone who tries to eliminate suffering by killing the "sufferers" is establishing a horrific trend! It is not for us to decide who has a life worth living and who doesn't, and we certainly wouldn't want someone else making that decision for us!


In the end, this whole question of disability is a mere disguise to divert attention from abortion's true agenda. The fact is, abortion advocates support killing babies whether they have disabilities or not. They're not arguing that abortion should be limited to fetuses with severe handicaps. They're arguing that the mother, alone, should have the right to kill her baby for any reason under the sun, and that is the most shocking reality of all.

SOURCE: The Case Against Abortion: Common Objections
 
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JoelM

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Well, it certainly isn't permissible from the Catholic point of view. Besides that, Luther was judged to be a heretic by the Catholic Church and as far as I know, the Catholic Church has not taken away this judgment.
Actually, killing disabled, "monstrous" infants was common in Medieval France. Many Catholics did then believe that the cause of the disability was demonic influence in procreation. In some cases even the mother was sentenced to death, accused of conceiving the child by lying with the devil.

But let's get to the issue at hand. Should an unborn child be aborted due to mental or physical disability? I say no. And to sum up my reasons why, I will quote from a website:
The brain is the seat of the soul, so those without a functional brain don't have a soul either. Thus, fetuses diagnosed with e.g. anencephaly can be aborted.
 
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kepha31

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Actually, killing disabled, "monstrous" infants was common in Medieval France. Many Catholics did then believe that the cause of the disability was demonic influence in procreation. In some cases even the mother was sentenced to death, accused of conceiving the child by lying with the devil.

Many Catholics also use contraception, but that does not make it any less evil. Morality is never the result of a popular vote. As far as what may have been believed by Catholics to be the cause of disability (which you failed to document), it was ever formally taught. Claims of the mother being sentenced to death for lying with the devil is more of that reformist propaganda from the Black Legend that no serious historian accepts. I would be happy to expose the commonly believed myths about the Inquistion on another thread.

Disabled babies are still human, and using rare exeptions to justify the slaughter of millions of them is an act of desparation and guilt appeasement. Abortion is intrinsically evil. Period.
 
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Ave Maria

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Actually, killing disabled, "monstrous" infants was common in Medieval France. Many Catholics did then believe that the cause of the disability was demonic influence in procreation. In some cases even the mother was sentenced to death, accused of conceiving the child by lying with the devil.


The brain is the seat of the soul, so those without a functional brain don't have a soul either. Thus, fetuses diagnosed with e.g. anencephaly can be aborted.

Just because many Catholics did it does not mean that it was not officially condemned.

Also, the brain is not the seat of the soul. There is no such thing as a seat of the soul. Jesus was totally divine and totally human. We sinners are totally human and our souls inhabit our entire bodies. I will get back to you with a source on this later.

Also, you do realize that at the time of conception, all the genes are there that will determine every single aspect of that person, correct? :confused:

I thought the heart was the seat of the soul. Seems an excuse just to abort the child.

I believe all of "Elohim's creatures have purpose regardless of the circumstance.

You are correct that all of God's creatures have purpose.

Many Catholics also use contraception, but that does not make it any less evil. Morality is never the result of a popular vote. As far as what may have been believed by Catholics to be the cause of disability (which you failed to document), it was ever formally taught. Claims of the mother being sentenced to death for lying with the devil is more of that reformist propaganda from the Black Legend that no serious historian accepts. I would be happy to expose the commonly believed myths about the Inquistion on another thread.

Disabled babies are still human, and using rare exeptions to justify the slaughter of millions of them is an act of desparation and guilt appeasement. Abortion is intrinsically evil. Period.

Exactly! Abortion is intrinsically evil. Period. Just as you have said, my friend. :thumbsup:
 
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kepha31

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The practice of letting disabled or deformed babies die of exposure shortly after birth used to be common in Europe.

Martin Luther denounced children and adults with mental retardation as "filled with Satan." Luther advised that children with severe mental retardation should be drowned because they are ". . . a mass of flesh with no soul. For it is the Devil’s power that he corrupts people who have reason and souls when he possesses them. The Devil sits in such changelings where their souls should have been."

Thus, abortion in the case of disability should be permissible from the classical Lutheran viewpoint.

According to Martin Luther, I "am filled with Satan", and he did not confine his infallible definition just to mental retardation. I have bipolar disorder... a mental illness. According to the great Martin Luther, everyone who has a mental illnesss is possessed by the devil. No mention of what degree.

Therefore, every unborn who fails a DNA "perfect human" test should be aborted? Where does one draw the line, and is the "line" ever stationary? No, it's isn't. It's a slippery slope to genocide. If you have a son or daughter with a case of Attention Deficit Disorder, you are justified, according to the classical Lutheran viewpoint, to drown them? Can you be so hideous as that and claim to be a follower of Christ?

Pay attention to your own quote. Luther is talking about children, not the unborn.

If the most vulnerable members of our society do not have the most fundamental human right, the right to life, then eventually no one will.

Do you hold these quotes to be the classical Lutheran viewpoint?

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves"

He told people to knock the peasants to pieces and strangle and stab them. 100,000 German peasants were horribly slaughtered in the revolt!

Martin Luther was himself mentally ill, and according to his own criteria, should not be allowed to live. I don't mean to be offensive to Lutherans, they are for the most part good Christians, but to use Martin Luther as a moral authority or even as an excuse to abort everyone who fails the Aryan test is a big mistake.
 
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JoelM

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Also, you do realize that at the time of conception, all the genes are there that will determine every single aspect of that person, correct? :confused:
Yes, that is why each healthy fetus is a potential person and his or her life should be protected. However, in the case that there is a genetical defect causing severe disability, the potential for personhood does not exist.

It's also important to remember that the life-long health care of a disabled individual will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, even millions. Taxpayers shouldn't pay this bill in countries with universal healthcare, and in the countries without universal healthcare parents rarely have the financial resources.

Pope Pius XII stated in his 1957 essay entitled "The Prolongation of Life" that only ordinary means should be used to prolong life, with the burden on others of continued life of deformed infants being considered when determining what course of action to take. IMHO, spending over $10 000 is extraordinary, and neither parents nor the government have an ethical obligation to do so.
 
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Ave Maria

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Yes, that is why each healthy fetus is a potential person and his or her life should be protected. However, in the case that there is a genetical defect causing severe disability, the potential for personhood does not exist.

It's also important to remember that the life-long health care of a disabled individual will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, even millions. Taxpayers shouldn't pay this bill in countries with universal healthcare, and in the countries without universal healthcare parents rarely have the financial resources.

Pope Pius XII stated in his 1957 essay entitled "The Prolongation of Life" that only ordinary means should be used to prolong life, with the burden on others of continued life of deformed infants being considered when determining what course of action to take. IMHO, spending over $10 000 is extraordinary, and neither parents nor the government have an ethical obligation to do so.

Hmmm, you make some very good points. :thumbsup: I really need to learn to defend the pro-choice position better. :p
 
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kepha31

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Sadistic hate cultists like to flame Pope Benedict and call him a Nazi. The Pope was never a Nazi. He was involuntarily conscripted into the Hilter Youth like everyone else in high school, which was not the Nazi Party. He deserted at the risk of his life, and studied in underground seminaries. 3 million Jews and 3 million Catholics were killed in the Holocaust. Calling the Pope a Nazi is obscene.
JoelM :
Thus, abortion in the case of disability should be permissible from the classical Lutheran viewpoint.
During the Nazi period in Germany in this century, Luther was resurrected again as a great German hero. His defiance against the Pope was seen as the same type of rebellion against foreign interference that the Nazis wanted to inspire against the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles. Luther's support for absolute authority vested in the secular ruler was quite supportive of the fascistic goal of concentration of power in the hands of a "great leader." Also, Luther's vituperant anti-semitism was used to give religious support to the persecution of Jews and eventually the genocidal intent of the "Final Solution".

The Nazis invented what was called the "German Church Movement." The vast majority of Lutheran ministers in Germany joined this movement. Many of them actually preached their sermons while wearing Nazi regalia. (the Pope was never a Nazi) The members of this movement encouraged the people to join with the Nazi goals and ideologies.

There was opposition to this nazification of Lutheranism from within the Protestant community. Native German pastors like Neimoeller and Bonhoffer were publicly critical of the German Church Movement. Several dissenters —including the Swiss protestant theologian Karl Barth— came together and wrote the anti-Nazi Barmen Church Declaration. It was because of his work on this document that Barth had to flee for his life back to Switzerland. After the war Barth stated his opinion that it was Luther's doctrine of the "two swords" which had paralyzed the Lutheran Church in Germany and made it willingly complicit in the Nazi atrocities.

Martin Luther did not merely rebel against the Catholic Church of his day. He rebelled against all external authority and made his own will the supreme authority in his life. This formula of self-adulation leads inexorably to personal moral autonomy. When this principle is extended into the political realm, it leads to totalitarianism with the power concentrated in the hands of the few.

Medieval society functioned under Catholic auspices, recognizing the legitimate distinction between the powers of the individual (subsidiarity) and those of the various levels of collective community (solidarity). This balanced view limited the authority of both the individual and the nested hierarchy of social strata so that there was a synergistic support for the rights of all the elements in society with minimal conflict and the goal of fostering the common good as its ultimate aim.
The starkness of Luther's dialectical vision led instead to the diametrically opposed concepts of individualism and collectivism which are constantly vying for supremacy over each other in an eternal "class struggle." The usual solution to the struggle is moral compromise, not constructive social integration for the sake of the common good.

If only history had not taken the serious wrong turn of the Protestant "Reformation," Catholic social principles would have dominated in the politics of the west and many of the great disasters of recent history could have been averted.
The Catholic Legate | Articles


What does any of this have to do with abortion?
WHO WAS MARGARET SANGER?
 
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kepha31

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Yea, lux. I have my own thoughts. Nowhere have I or anyone else in this thread or possibly in this enite forum have painted Lutherans as evil heretics, just a few deceived Lutheran ministers in Nazi Germany perhaps, but not all Lutherans.

Can you avoid twisting my articles out of context? Just curious.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Got some cites for this Luther stuff about kids? I'd be interested in reading it and finding context.

Context is king, ya know.

For the record, we do NOT believe abortion is okay, and if Luther ever did make any such claim towards children, whether unborn or born, we chalk it up to Luther being human, sinful and not perfect.

We don't worship Luther, we worship God.
 
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127.0.0.1

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The practice of letting disabled or deformed babies die of exposure shortly after birth used to be common in Europe.

Martin Luther denounced children and adults with mental retardation as "filled with Satan." Luther advised that children with severe mental retardation should be drowned because they are ". . . a mass of flesh with no soul. For it is the Devil’s power that he corrupts people who have reason and souls when he possesses them. The Devil sits in such changelings where their souls should have been."

Thus, abortion in the case of disability should be permissible from the classical Lutheran viewpoint.


Why not just abort it if it's black...or a Jew...Jews killed Christ, they should all be put to death for that, surely?

Don't tell me you actually believe any of that *.
Look, if you wanna go throw grenades are disabled people, do it in a video game.

Next you'll be saying you can have an abortion if you think the baby's gay.

EDIT:
The brain is the seat of the soul, so those without a functional brain don't have a soul either. Thus, fetuses diagnosed with e.g. anencephaly can be aborted.

* that's sick. Wake up will you!
 
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JoelM

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Why not just abort it if it's black...or a Jew...Jews killed Christ, they should all be put to death for that, surely?
Of course not. Don't be ridiculous.

Next you'll be saying you can have an abortion if you think the baby's gay.
Gay babies don't exist. Sodomitic lifestyle is a choice.

* that's sick. Wake up will you!
Care to elaborate? Do a Google Image search on "anencephaly" and then tell me if it's wrong to abort an anencephalic fetus.
 
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lux et lex

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For the record, we do NOT believe abortion is okay, and if Luther ever did make any such claim towards children, whether unborn or born, we chalk it up to Luther being human, sinful and not perfect.

We don't worship Luther, we worship God.

"We" don't? I wouldn't be so sure.

B. Ending a Pregnancy
This church recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion. The following provides guidance for those considering such a decision. We recognize that conscientious decisions need to be made in relation to difficult circumstances that vary greatly. What is determined to be a morally responsible decision in one situation may not be in another.
In reflecting ethically on what should be done in the case of an unintended pregnancy, consideration should be given to the status and condition of the life in the womb. We also need to consider the conditions under which the pregnancy occurred and the implications of the pregnancy for the woman's life.
An abortion is morally responsible in those cases in which continuation of a pregnancy presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman.
A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse.[E] This is especially true in cases of rape and incest. This can also be the case in some situations in which women are so dominated and oppressed that they have no choice regarding sexual intercourse and little access to contraceptives. Some conceptions occur under dehumanizing conditions that are contrary to God's purposes.
There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.
Although abortion raises significant moral issues at any stage of fetal development, the closer the life in the womb comes to full term the more serious such issues become.[F] When a child can survive outside a womb, it becomes possible for other people, and not only the mother, to nourish and care for the child. This church opposes ending intrauterine life when a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology. If a pregnancy needs to be interrupted after this point, every reasonable and necessary effort should be made to support this life, unless there are lethal fetal abnormalities indicating that the prospective newborn will die very soon.
Our biblical and confessional commitments provide the basis for us to continue deliberating together on the moral issues related to these decisions. We have the responsibility to make the best possible decisions in light of the information available to us and our sense of accountability to God, neighbor, and self. In these decisions, we must ultimately rely on the grace of God.


C. The Regulation of Abortion
Members of this church hold different opinions about the role and extent of public law and regulation in relation to abortion. The spectrum of disagreement ranges from those who believe all abortions should be prohibited by law, except to save the life of the mother, to those who oppose any law seeking to regulate abortion, except to protect the health and safety of the woman. For some, the question of pregnancy and abortion is not a matter for governmental interference, but a matter of religious liberty and freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment. For others, the law's function in protecting life needs to include the life in the womb. Some stress the limited ability of law to stop abortions, and contend that there is increased danger to women if abortions are made illegal. They maintain that regulation takes away a woman's freedom to choose abortion as well as her freedom to affirm life by choosing to bear the child. Still others see the need to work for laws that both protect life in the womb to a greater degree and protect women's freedom to choose abortion in certain circumstances.
The position of this church is that government has a legitimate role in regulating abortion. A major challenge is to formulate policy regarding abortion that will have sufficient consensus to be enforceable. Furthermore, any proposed regulation should contribute toward the intended goals without generating problems worse than those it seeks to address.
In the case of abortion, public policy has a double challenge. One is to be effective in protecting prenatal life. The other is to protect the dignity of women and their freedom to make responsible decisions in difficult situations. Pursuing those ends is particularly formidable because our society is so divided on this issue, and because women, people of color, and those of low income are so under-represented in legislative and judicial processes. In its advocacy regarding these issues, this church should exert every effort to see that the needs of those most directly affected, particularly the pregnant woman and the life in her womb, are seriously considered in the political process.
Laws should be enacted and enforced justly for the preservation and enhancement of life, and should avoid unduly encumbering or endangering the lives of women.
Because of our conviction that both the life of the woman and the life in her womb must be respected by law, this church opposes:

  • the total lack of regulation of abortion;
  • legislation that would outlaw abortion in all circumstances;
  • laws that prevent access to information about all options available to women faced with unintended pregnancies;
  • laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions;
  • mandatory or coerced abortion or sterilization;
  • laws that prevent couples from practicing contraception;
  • laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion.
The position of this church is that, in cases where the life of the mother is threatened, where pregnancy results from rape or incest, or where the embryo or fetus has lethal abnormalities incompatible with life, abortion prior to viability should not be prohibited by law or by lack of public funding of abortions for low income women. On the other hand, this church supports legislation that prohibits abortions that are performed after the fetus is determined to be viable, except when the mother's life is threatened or when lethal abnormalities indicate the prospective newborn will die very soon.


Abortion - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
 
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kepha31

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When a child can survive outside a womb, it becomes possible for other people, and not only the mother, to nourish and care for the child.
In other words, it's not a human "child" until after it is born. It's not only anti-biblical, it's evil with a mask.
On the other hand, this church supports legislation that prohibits abortions that are performed after the fetus is determined to be viable...,
In other words, "this church" decides when a human being is viable. Nowhere does the ELCA recognize unborn human babies as human or sacred, contrary to the Bible, and contrary to 2000 of consistent Christian teaching.
 
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