Abortion hypothetical

[Meepy]

Look, delivery on a previable fetus will kill it, no two ways about it.



Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

My wife works in a neo natal ICU.

Its amazing how early they can deliver a baby and incubate to survival.

 

[benedictaoo]

Look, delivery on a previable fetus will kill it, no two ways about it.

But its not the intent to kill it but to save it... but abortion is exactly the intent to kill it with no intention what so ever in saving it- no two ways about that.

This is such a simple concept of double effect to grasp Jim, why are you struggling accepting the difference between what a direct intentional killing is and a unintentional indirect death is?

The intent and then the means we use, Jim...

and just becuase a previable fetus may be too young to survive outside the mother...hello Jim, that does not give us any permission what so ever to abort it.

We just have no said permission- ever! period. There is no time it can ever be made okay.

 

[JoabAnias]

In hindsight since making that statement, I was thinking, yeah they paid, but that was 30 years ago, when we had an insurance company which administered health claims for corporation I worked for, which paid the bills. It was not an HMO.

Good example. HMO's recruit Dr.'s who will do whatever they like.

The assisted suicide situation in Oregon is a good example where suicide is approved by HMO's as a treatment in lieu of palliative and pain management therapies. Its also known that patients seeking legal suicide in OR. shop around for a Dr. to prescribe death there. Its a shady business that doesn't even need to be reported unless a physician chooses so accountability is all but non-existant. Proponents claim there are protections but those in the know say they don't work. pfft! I suppose when everything is either desensitized or hyper sensitized, everything is reduced to a choice against temptation, even life.

 

[JoabAnias]

For all those who do not get all the options they should:

Benotafraid.net an outreach to parents with a poor prenatal diagnosis

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Meepy

I guess you have never heard of an incubator. With the technology of today a premature baby as early as 24 weeks(and cases of even earlier ones) can live outside the mothers womb with proper medical supervision.

My son was born at 27 weeks and was in a neonatal intensive care nursery, where I saw 24 week old fetuses which survived.

However, fetuses younger than 21 do not survive and certainly, those at 11 weeks have absolutely no chance.

a premature birth isn't always certain death.

Before viability it most certainly is.

An abortion is when there is a direct killing of the unborn. Meaning purposely mutilating it or injuring it bodily with instruments or poisons. Inducing a premature birth is removing the baby from the womb when there is health problems related to both mother and child. The important part is the baby is removed from the mother intact, instead of mutilated like an abortion, and there is effort to keep it alive. That is the difference

Removing a fetus from the womb of the mother before viability will kill the fetus and is considered a direct abortion and is illicit.

Go back and read through the post on this thread, it was debated to death and the above statement was proven true.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I guess you don't understand the difference between a pre-viable and viable fetus is.

Under 21 weeks, they can not survive and doctors today do not try to save them, for it ends up in torturing the fetus to death, not saving its
life.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

benedictaoo;

But its not the intent to kill it but to save it... but abortion is exactly the intent to kill it with no intention what so ever in saving it- no two ways about that.

If they terminate a pregnancy on a previable fetus which they know will kill it by removing it from the womb of the mother, it is an abortion and illicit. Doesn't matter if the intent is to save the mother, it is still directly killing the fetus and it's an abortion.

We already went through this way back.

Jim

 

[Meepy]

benedictaoo;



If they terminate a pregnancy on a previable fetus which they know will kill it by removing it from the womb of the mother, it is an abortion and illicit. Doesn't matter if the intent is to save the mother, it is still directly killing the fetus and it's an abortion.

We already went through this way back.

Jim

well, then the hospital would keep the woman in intensive care until viability. The danger of PPH is the birth part, not holding the baby until viability.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

well, then the hospital would keep the woman in intensive care until viability. The danger of PPH is the birth part, not holding the baby until viability.

That was their desire, but, the woman was in a crisis emergency mode, they had to act or step back and watch her die along with the fetus.

They were there, you were not, and as far as I can tell, you're not a doctor. So don't speculate on the medical condition of the woman and what procedure could've been done.

Jim

 

[Meepy]

That was their desire, but, the woman was in a crisis emergency mode, they had to act or step back and watch her die along with the fetus.

They were there, you were not, and as far as I can tell, you're not a doctor. So don't speculate on the medical condition of the woman and what procedure could've been done.

Jim

if someone is in crisis mode how would they be able to go through an abortion then?? Like I said earlier parts of the story just don't add up. My mother is a nurse by the way and she said PPH can be stabilized with proper medication and supervision. Just like the other articles said

Does anyone have a history of the views of this nurse of oked the abortion? Sadly there are a large amount of nuns within the Church who are secretly pro-abortion. Especially the groups where none of them wear habits.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Meepy

if someone is in crisis mode how would they be able to go through an abortion then??

It's the last resort, but we don't know what procedure was used. It may be she was induced, but nothing was reported.

Like I said earlier parts of the story just don't add up. My mother is a nurse by the way and she said PPH can be stabilized with proper medication and supervision. Just like the other articles said

My wife is a nurse and we've been through the issues. No, it's not always possible to stabilize the mother's condition. It this case, it apparently was not. But I'm not a doctor who was on the case, so I can't say with 100% certainty, neither was your mother.

Does anyone have a history of the views of this nurse of oked the abortion? Sadly there are a large amount of nuns within the Church who are secretly pro-abortion. Especially the groups where none of them wear habits.

It was a nun, Sr McBride who was on the ethics panel who approved what she thought was considered and indirect abortion, which is licit. However, after some one in the media heard that an abortion was performed at the Catholic Hospital, they contacted the Bishops office and he confirmed that a direct abortion was performed and the result was that the doctors and the nun were excommunicated Late sententiae. This means, they had to go to confession to have the excommunication lifted, which apparently the nun did, but not so the doctors.

In fact, the hospital has since had it's Catholic identification removed by the Bishop.

Jim

 

[Meepy]

Meepy



It's the last resort, but we don't know what procedure was used. It may be she was induced, but nothing was reported.



My wife is a nurse and we've been through the issues. No, it's not always possible to stabilize the mother's condition. It this case, it apparently was not. But I'm not a doctor who was on the case, so I can't say with 100% certainty, neither was your mother.



It was a nun, Sr McBride who was on the ethics panel who approved what she thought was considered and indirect abortion, which is licit. However, after some one in the media heard that an abortion was performed at the Catholic Hospital, they contacted the Bishops office and he confirmed that a direct abortion was performed and the result was that the doctors and the nun were excommunicated Late sententiae. This means, they had to go to confession to have the excommunication lifted, which apparently the nun did, but not so the doctors.

In fact, the hospital has since had it's Catholic identification removed by the Bishop.

Jim

I'm glad the nun repented. Maybe the doctor tried to pressure her to ok the abortion so he would not have to go through the work of stabilizing her and the baby. Many doctors have that "why go through all the trouble" attitude.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'm glad the nun repented. Maybe the doctor tried to pressure her to ok the abortion so he would not have to go through the work of stabilizing her and the baby. Many doctors have that "why go through all the trouble" attitude.

It was a team of doctors at a Catholic hospital, not just one making the decision.


Jim

 

[NoBama2012]

......A woman is pregnant. She is healthy, fit, and is essentially in good shape to handle a pregnancy. However, 11 weeks into the pregnancy, she develops a heart problem (directly caused by pregnancy) and there is a 100% chance that she will indeed die within the next 1-2 weeks if the source of her ailment - the pregnancy - is not terminated. There is no other way to remedy her heart condition, and the doctors are certain that if the pregnancy is terminated, she will regain her health with time and the right medical care. If the pregnancy is not terminated, she will die.

Does the Church mandate that this woman must die because she is pregnant?.........

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I haven't read this whole thread: Its pretty long. Let me just answer the question with a question of my own:

Is there a mother among any of you here who would not sacrafice her own life to save the life of her child? I am trying to figure out what kind of mother would kill her own child just to save her own skin.

I know that may sound a bit harsh, but if we REALLY believe what we believe about life beginning at conception, and if we REALLY believe what we believe about the babe in the wound being a person, then that's sort of what it really comes down to, doesn't it?.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

NoBama

Is there a mother among any of you here who would not sacrafice her own life to save the life of her child? I am trying to figure out what kind of mother would kill her own child just to save her own skin.

Point of correcition. The mother couldn't save the child regardless of what she chose. If she chose not to terminate the pregnancy, she was going to die and of course so would the 11 week fetus.

Jim

 

[NoBama2012]

.
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Oh. Well, in that case.... ...I don't know the answer.

<<walks away embarassed>>

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[Gwendolyn]

It's the last resort, but we don't know what procedure was used. It may be she was induced, but nothing was reported.

I read a detailed case study on the case. D&C was the method used (vacuum). She was not induced.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I read a detailed case study on the case. D&C was the method used (vacuum). She was not induced.

OK.

It was my guess, being she had pulmanary hypertension. I didn't think she
could endure labor, but I didn't want to guess about it.

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

.
.
Oh. Well, in that case.... ...I don't know the answer.

<<walks away embarassed>>

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Most people arguing these sort of hypothetic situations only do so to find validly rational excuses for terminating the life of a baby.

Its good to know there are ethical exceptions but it may not be so good to morbidly pursue them with attitudinal sanctimony and glee.

Its akin to explaining how one who deliberately puts their soul at risk can avoid breaking their conscience. No one should take such a risk unless forced into it somehow.