Abortion Clinics

[Chris†opher Paul]

Even though I don't agree with blowing up abortion clinics, or killing the doctors that perform them, I would like to explore something.   

Why do Americans fight wars?  To protect innocents, right?  To free the oppressed people, such as in the Gulf War, etc.

Who is more innocent than an unborn child?  How is defending their lives from murderous people not a more righteous war?

Just some contradictions that I don't understand.

This came up in another thread, but I felt it deserves it own.

 

[mac_philo]

The difference is that the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, with the exception of self defense. So even if you claim that attacking abortion clinics is a 'just war,' it doesn't matter since only the state has the authority to make war. In a modern state citizens cede any right to instigate force to the state, in exchange for which they get rule of law. In this instance, those who wish to ban abortion have not seen their opinion prevail via rule of law, yet since they have no legitimate authority to instigate violence any such actions as you've described are unjustified.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

True...but for the sake of argument, isn't defending the defenseless a form of self-defense?

The babies can't fight back against the doctor murdering them...

 

[mac_philo]

Well, it wouldn't strictly be self-defense, but I do understand your point. That's not going to work, though, because you are using 'murder' in an idiosynchantic sense. It is not murder-murder is illegal. Of course you are free to argue that this is the equivalent of murder, but then again we're back at the initial problem because the rule of law has already decreed that it is not murder. So I still think you can rule this out as a simple case of using violence to subvert the rule of law.

Even if the type of reasoning given here did support such actions, I think the position will disolve when you consider what other analogical actions would be justified. This reasoning justifies assasinating parents who for religious reasons deny their children modern health care. It the cigarette companies did indeed market to children, it justifies violence against their executives and property. It justifies violence against General Electric and its executives for the pollution caused at Love Canal. All of these are instances of injury caused to defenseless people.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by mac_philo
Well, it wouldn't strictly be self-defense, but I do understand your point. That's not going to work, though, because you are using 'murder' in an idiosynchantic sense. It is not murder-murder is illegal. Of course you are free to argue that this is the equivalent of murder, but then again we're back at the initial problem because the rule of law has already decreed that it is not murder. So I still think you can rule this out as a simple case of using violence to subvert the rule of law.

Even if the type of reasoning given here did support such actions, I think the position will disolve when you consider what other analogical actions would be justified. This reasoning justifies assasinating parents who for religious reasons deny their children modern health care. It the cigarette companies did indeed market to children, it justifies violence against their executives and property. It justifies violence against General Electric and its executives for the pollution caused at Love Canal. All of these are instances of injury caused to defenseless people.

The rule of law...well, human laws have been wrong before.  Remember slavery?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

As an orthodox Jew, I oppose any non-therapeutic abortion (this includes abortion-as-birth-control) very strongly & even those therapeutic abortions that do not meet the strict criteria of Jewish law. However, opposition to abortion must be carried out within the law. No private individual or group has the right to declare itself judge, jury and executioner; by doing so, they stoop to the level of those they condemn so vehemently. Not condemning abortion clinic bombings & related acts of violence is one step away from condoning lynching.

Be well!

ssv

 

[ZiSunka]

Who is more innocent than an unborn child?

I hate to use a cliche, but two wrongs really don't make a right.

And whoever blows up a clinic neglects to consider that all humans are valuable, even the ones who do evil, and that the bomb may kill women waiting for their abortion, thus killing unborn children with the bomb.

All human life is precious, no human life is disposable and clinic bombings send society the same message as abortions do--that is permissible to kill those people we don't like.

 

[LightBearer]

The best offence against abortion is education.

 

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by LightBearer
The best offence against abortion is education.

And birth control

 

[Warrior4Jah]

Woah, stop the train here people! Attacking an abortion clinic is absolutey NO way to fight abortion!! None whatsoever! Its that kind of thing that gives christianity a bad name! "Judge not lest be judged" Though I odnt think abortion is right, you dont know some of the situtations many of those women are in! To kill to make point is senseless, disgusting and evil.

 

[LouisBooth]

Originally posted by LightBearer
The best offence against abortion is education.

 

Amen!!! Did ya know the child has a heart beat after 6 weeks! You can even see hands and feet forming. At a crisis preg center I visit and help at every woman that has seen an ultrasound decided against abortion after seeing the child is in fact, a child.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by LightBearer
The best offence against abortion is education.

Amen. Did you know that by far, abstince only sex education has much lower sucess rates for preventing unwanted pegnacies than more liberal health and contraception sex education?

Teenagers have sex. That is a fact of life. We might as well prepare them for it.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Who is more innocent than an unborn child?  How is defending their lives from murderous people not a more righteous war?

Who is more innocent than cancer cells? How is defending their lives from murderous people not a more righteous war?

s0uljah,

Didn't we already go through this? No one has a right to tell a woman that she must risk her life in childbirth. That is a choice that she must make for herself. No one can order her to have a child, not her husband, not her father, and especially not the government. If you want to decrease the number of abortions in this country, you shouldn't try to do it though political or violent means. You should do it by affecting the culture of America. If women and men are educated about their bodies, responsibilities, and the options open to them, you will see a reduction in the number of abortions. You will never get anywhere by condemning the women who make this choice and the doctors that help them.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Teenagers have sex. That is a fact of life. We might as well prepare them for it."

Yup, there isn't anything wrong with education, but the sad thing is these days they don't get the full story.

1. Sex is never a "safe" thing
2. condoms don't prevent all stds.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Warrior4Jah
Woah, stop the train here people! Attacking an abortion clinic is absolutey NO way to fight abortion!! None whatsoever! Its that kind of thing that gives christianity a bad name! "Judge not lest be judged" Though I odnt think abortion is right, you dont know some of the situtations many of those women are in! To kill to make point is senseless, disgusting and evil.

Read my first post, bro, Im just playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion.

What is wrong with fighting a war to protect someone?  Those babies can't fight back.  Should we not "judge" a Hitler when he kills innocents?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus


Who is more innocent than cancer cells? How is defending their lives from murderous people not a more righteous war?

s0uljah,

Didn't we already go through this? No one has a right to tell a woman that she must risk her life in childbirth. That is a choice that she must make for herself. No one can order her to have a child, not her husband, not her father, and especially not the government. If you want to decrease the number of abortions in this country, you shouldn't try to do it though political or violent means. You should do it by affecting the culture of America. If women and men are educated about their bodies, responsibilities, and the options open to them, you will see a reduction in the number of abortions. You will never get anywhere by condemning the women who make this choice and the doctors that help them.

Sure we did, but going through it before doesn't make either of us right, does it?

Also, read the first post, I am not advocating it, just wondering what the difference is between that and going to a just war.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by Warrior4Jah
Woah, stop the train here people! Attacking an abortion clinic is absolutey NO way to fight abortion!! None whatsoever! Its that kind of thing that gives christianity a bad name! "Judge not lest be judged" Though I odnt think abortion is right, you dont know some of the situtations many of those women are in! To kill to make point is senseless, disgusting and evil.

To whome do you refer?

 

[Wildfire]

Abortion was made legal to protect the mother from hurting herself and bleeding to death=the child is sacrificed (removed) for her own safety. Sadly, the child is second to the mother.

The doctors are not the murderers. Isolating anger towards them breeds hatred; instead we should try to reach these women gently, through love and compassion.
Remember the woman who washed Jesus' feet? How great were her sins, and how much was forgiven.

When the new abortion pill is passed through Congress, (soon) are the licensed Pharmacists going to be the new breed of accused killers?

God forbid.

Remember what Jesus told us to do.

Love one another.

Wildfire

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Abortion was made legal to protect the mother from hurting herself and bleeding to death=the child is sacrificed (removed) for her own safety. Sadly, the child is second to the mother.

The doctors are not the murderers. Isolating anger towards them breeds hatred; instead we should try to reach these women gently, through love and compassion.
Remember the woman who washed Jesus' feet? How great were her sins, and how much was forgiven.

When the new abortion pill is passed through Congress, (soon) are the licensed Pharmacists going to be the new breed of accused killers?

God forbid.

Remember what Jesus told us to do.

Love one another.

Wildfire

What animal in the wilderness wouldn't sacrifice her life for that of her offsring?  Even wild animals act better than mothers who murder their children.  Sad but true.

 

[Wildfire]

Yes, Soulja, I would throw myself to the wolves for my own children, but remember what we are told by the disciples:

"Because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold, but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved."

As we near towards the end of the age (or end of the world) wickedness shall certainly increase; so be careful not to let anger and upset overrule you. Have patience, it is Gods will that all these things be fulfilled.

Trust in the Lord; search the scriptures. Find your peace of mind about this; he will give you understanding.

Weep for all children; those who are unborn, those who are murdered, those who are abused, and those who are lost.
And believe that there is a promise, awaiting all of us. That one day we shall live beneath a new heaven and dwell together a new earth, where there is no hunger and no pain. And the Lord shall feed us, and light us; and we shall be with him forever and ever.
Amen.