Abortion Arguements

[RepentorPerish]

In any abortion arguement, there are three main keys that form the foundation of the abortionist's side. The general arguement is "So the mother can have a better life."

1. Development

The abortionist will claim that it is an embryo, it isn't fully developed. This same logic can therefore be applied to 2 year olds. 2 year olds are not yet fully developed, therefore it should be okay to pump their brains with poison and kill them, so the parents can enjoy a better life. As anyone knows, this is called murder.

2. Location

"Oh no, you see the embryo is inside the mother!" they'll remark. Okay, so it's an issue of location now. Well, I'm located here in Brisbane, Australia. I'm a human. Queen Elizabeth is located in London, England. She's a human. Location doesn't alter the fact of whether something is human or not!

3. Reliance

"Oh, but it relies on the mother.." they say. How old are you? Do you still rely on your mother? 16 year old teenagers still rely on their mothers to drive them places! Reliance, is not the issue!

The final thing they might remark is the general arguement "The mother is allowed to have a better life."

An American woman took note of this, the man she was dating hated kids, and as such she strapped her 8 and 10 year old sons into the back of her car, and then drove it into a river, killing them both. Why? So she could have a "better life" at the expense of two lives. She was caught and convicted of murder, and sentenced to many years in prison.

"What about those that have been raped?" While unfortunate, are you going to repay evil with evil? Repay rape with murder? Only a vile and wicked person could ever think of such a thing.

An Interesting Quiz

How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

God is the author of life, and He has givenevery single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry.

Excerpt from the Evidence Bible


Oh and one more thing:

6th Commandment: Thou shalt not murder.
All murderers shall have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8)

Josh.

 

[Willo]

yup, its murder!

 

[kalel29]

Anybody bring popcorn, cause this is gonna get interesting.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

Anybody bring popcorn, cause this is gonna get interesting.

Yup, it will. I am refraining from saying anything one way or the other because there are much better debaters than I who will make this thread an interesting read.

 

[RepentorPerish]

Listen to what the LORD says: "Stand up, plead your case before the mountains; let the hills hear what you have to say." (Micah 6:1)

 

[monkey88]

Hi,
I've never heard those arguments stated in that way, they seem over simplified. I agree with abortion but not after 19 weeks, although I feel that an ultra sound should be done to make sure the fetus is has not developed quicker than usual. I say before 19 weeks because before that, it is common consensus in the scientific community that the fetus has no sensory perception, and the brain has not developed enough to be considered a seperate entity. But after that, the fetus begins to move, become aware, which would constitute infancide.

 

[Willo]

Hi,
I agree with abortion

How should an abortion be done? The mother has a right to choose, correct?

What if she chose to have the baby killed by getting a man with a baseball bat to hit her, so the baby died, can she choose that way? Most people say no, as they are repulsed at the idea of killing a child that way. Also if someone done it that way, the police would lock you up.

But if a mother goes and has it murdered surgically its alright? Isn't that like finding a place where our conscience says its alright to murder?

If we believe the mother has a choice to kill the kid or not, then shouldn't the mother have a choice on how to kill the kid?

 

[monkey88]

Well if she wants a baseball bat in the gut, then I would say she should see a psychiatrist. But again if the fetus was under 19 weeks and she really wanted it done that way, she's entitled to.

 

[RepentorPerish]

Hi,
I've never heard those arguments stated in that way, they seem over simplified. I agree with abortion but not after 19 weeks, although I feel that an ultra sound should be done to make sure the fetus is has not developed quicker than usual. I say before 19 weeks because before that, it is common consensus in the scientific community that the fetus has no sensory perception, and the brain has not developed enough to be considered a seperate entity. But after that, the fetus begins to move, become aware, which would constitute infancide.

Alright then, let me ask you this:

At what stage is an amoeba, a single celled organism, not alive? Not have sensory perception?

Perhaps you say well an amoeba is a seperate entity in itself? Well, SO IS AN EMBRYO.

The Bible says in Isaiah 46:3

"You whom I [God] have upheld since your conception"

Now compare this to modern scientific research. Embryonic and early conception researchers have discovered an asounding miracle. On day 6 of the embryo's development, it begins to produce a unique enzyme called IDO - Indoleamine 2, 3-dioxygenase. And what does it do? It suppresses the mother's immune system response. Why is day 6 important? Because on day 7 the embryo connects itself to the uterine wall, and begins drawing nutrients from the mother's bloodstream. If it did not produce this enzyme, it would be destroyed because the immune system would recognize it as foreign (just like in organ transplant) and annihlate it. Thus, God's Word is 100% accurate, His careful design does indeed uphold us from the moment of conception.

Every unborn child defends itself against its mother as the baby’s immune system battles the mother’s T-cell attack—a natural occurrence when “foreign” tissue is introduced into a person’s body. In a landmark 1998 paper, researchers at the Medical College of Georgia, in Augusta, GA, USA, found that the mammalian embryo produces a special enzyme called indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase, or “IDO,” which supresses the mother’s T-cell reaction and allows pregnancy to proceed.

What is signficant in this research is that, contrary to the proabortion lobby, the baby inside a mother’s womb is not part of her body. The baby has a unique genetic makeup—one that would cause the mother to reject it as “foreign” if it were not for this special enzyme!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/1004cm.asp

 

[Willo]

Well if she wants a baseball bat in the gut, then I would say she should see a psychiatrist. But again if the fetus was under 19 weeks and she really wanted it done that way, she's entitled to.

You serious? What about the person that does it, should he be charged with murder?

 

[Willo]

What God’s Word Says About Abortion
[size=-1]By Lynn Copeland[/size]

God speaks very clearly in the Bible on the value of unborn children. God’s Word says that He personally made each one of us, and has a plan for each life:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5).

"Even before I was born, God had chosen me to be His" (Galatians 1:15).

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb . . . Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13, 16). "Your hands shaped me and made me . . . Did You not clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life" (Job 10:8–12).

"This is what the Lord says—He who made you, who formed you in the womb" (Isaiah 44:2).

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" (Job 31:15).

​

Because man is made in God’s own image (Genesis 1:27), each life is of great value to God: "Children are a gift from God" (Psalm 127:3). He even calls our children His own: "You took your sons and daughters whom you bore to Me and sacrificed them...You slaughtered My children" (Ezekiel 16:20,21). The Bible says of our Creator, "In His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of every human being" (Job 12:10). God, the giver of life, commands us not to take the life of an innocent person: "Do not shed innocent blood" (Jeremiah 7:6); "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person" (Deuteronomy 27:25). "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Taking the life of the unborn is clearly murder—"He didn’t kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave" (Jeremiah 20:17)— and God vowed to punish those who "ripped open the women with child" (Amos 1:13).

The unborn child was granted equal protection in the law; if he lost his life, the one who caused his death must lose his own life: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined . . .But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life" (Exodus 21:22,23). Life is a gift created by God, and is not to be taken away by abortion. God is "prochoice," but He tells us clearly the only acceptable choice to make: "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/whatGodswordsaysaboutabortion.shtml

 

[monkey88]

You serious? What about the person that does it, should he be charged with murder?

Well, if that was how they wanted their abortion to occur and it wouldn't be a murder because as I stated the fetus at that stage is not aware, not sentinent, hence would not constitute murder. The person who did it would be charged with assault.

 

[monkey88]

What God’s Word Says About Abortion
[size=-1]By Lynn Copeland[/size]

God speaks very clearly in the Bible on the value of unborn children. God’s Word says that He personally made each one of us, and has a plan for each life:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5).


"Even before I was born, God had chosen me to be His" (Galatians 1:15).

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb . . . Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13, 16). "Your hands shaped me and made me . . . Did You not clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life" (Job 10:8–12).

"This is what the Lord says—He who made you, who formed you in the womb" (Isaiah 44:2).

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" (Job 31:15).


​

Because man is made in God’s own image (Genesis 1:27), each life is of great value to God: "Children are a gift from God" (Psalm 127:3). He even calls our children His own: "You took your sons and daughters whom you bore to Me and sacrificed them...You slaughtered My children" (Ezekiel 16:20,21). The Bible says of our Creator, "In His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of every human being" (Job 12:10). God, the giver of life, commands us not to take the life of an innocent person: "Do not shed innocent blood" (Jeremiah 7:6); "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person" (Deuteronomy 27:25). "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Taking the life of the unborn is clearly murder—"He didn’t kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave" (Jeremiah 20:17)— and God vowed to punish those who "ripped open the women with child" (Amos 1:13).


The unborn child was granted equal protection in the law; if he lost his life, the one who caused his death must lose his own life: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined . . .But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life" (Exodus 21:22,23). Life is a gift created by God, and is not to be taken away by abortion. God is "prochoice," but He tells us clearly the only acceptable choice to make: "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/whatGodswordsaysaboutabortion.shtml

The bible was written in the ancient world, where infant mortality rates were high and the life expectancy was 50, of course they were going to encourage people not to stop the early developmental stages of life.

 

[Willo]

Would you care to respond to RepentorPerish's statement

 

[monkey88]

I already have, on the first page of threads.

 

[Willo]

The bible was written in the ancient world, where infant mortality rates were high and the life expectancy was 50, of course they were going to encourage people not to stop the early developmental stages of life.

50 is high still in some parts of the modern world. So in the parts where there are high infant mortality rates, should abortion be banned?

Also since you believe the bible was written to the ancient world, wouldn't that then make its claims of "No murder" "No hating" "No lying" "No adultery" "No stealing" also out of date? (You have a conscience you know right from wrong. You know to kill is wrong)

But as for high infant deaths in Australia it is said 100 000 babies are murdered each year through abortion. Surely that is a high infant death rate.

 

[flicka]

In any abortion arguement, there are three main keys that form the foundation of the abortionist's side. The general arguement is "So the mother can have a better life."

1. Development

The abortionist will claim that it is an embryo, it isn't fully developed. This same logic can therefore be applied to 2 year olds. 2 year olds are not yet fully developed, therefore it should be okay to pump their brains with poison and kill them, so the parents can enjoy a better life. As anyone knows, this is called murder.

Extremely flawed logic. If you could save just one, a 2 week old fetus or a 2 yr old child which would it be and why? There was a whole thread done on this very theme so I won't waste my time explaining to you the difference between the two (I'm sure you can figure it out all by your lonesome anyway).

2. Location

"Oh no, you see the embryo is inside the mother!" they'll remark. Okay, so it's an issue of location now. Well, I'm located here in Brisbane, Australia. I'm a human. Queen Elizabeth is located in London, England. She's a human. Location doesn't alter the fact of whether something is human or not!

Ok, let me start by saying "WHAAAAAAT?"
Now that I got that out of my system I can assure you than someone being in France and someone being in your uterus are not the same thing.

3. Reliance

"Oh, but it relies on the mother.." they say. How old are you? Do you still rely on your mother? 16 year old teenagers still rely on their mothers to drive them places! Reliance, is not the issue!

Again, you are creating situations you say are the same but have NOTHING to do with each other. Apples/oranges. You probably know it but if you don't you have much to learn. Once someone is born, alive, an individual who has a separate life of their own, they are no longer a fetus so you can't make this kind of argument. My grown children still rely on me as I'm no doubt sure you do on your parents with logic like this. Sheesh.

The final thing they might remark is the general argument "The mother is allowed to have a better life."

Tho I've never actually heard this I agree with it. The living breathing woman with a life, a past, a future, and a connection to the world trumps a fetus each and every time. ALWAYS. While I only support early term abortions this also applies to late term abortions when the womans life is in danger. Living people who are already individuals with thoughts and dreams and connections to the world will always have priority to those who are not yet here.

Here is something you should know... I don't try to change anyones opinion on abortion because its is a personal thing. Be against abortion if you wish but face the fact that it basically comes down to this: you oppose it because you believe your religion says to. Or you oppose it because you find it personal distasteful. No need for bad logic and fallacies because it doesn't help your case in the long run.

 

[RepentorPerish]

I already have, one the first page of threads.

Would you care to respond as to why modern science agrees with what the Bible says to its entirity? Or perhaps prove that an embryo is not an independant entity? Because you have the full force of modern science against you, to deny this is just naivity.

"The fool has said in his heart 'There is no God.'" Psalm 14:1

 

[Willo]

I already have, on the first page of threads.

Not post number 9 you haven't

 

[RepentorPerish]

Here is something you should know... I don't try to change anyones opinion on abortion because its is a personal thing. Be against abortion if you wish but face the fact that it basically comes down to this: you oppose it because you believe your religion says to. Or you oppose it because you find it personal distasteful. No need for bad logic and fallacies because it doesn't help your case in the long run.

Life is a gift created by God, and is not to be taken away by abortion. God is "prochoice," but He tells us clearly the only acceptable choice to make:

"I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

I guess this is a bit beyond your understanding? But then again, you're arguement is probably from the fact we are somehow evolved pond scum, with no moral dictates. The old goo-to-you evolution.