No, no....I mean how it was devolped- like was it Aquinas or Augustine- why and how did it come to be a written down belief of the Church-- that kind of history....
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Abortion and War
- Thread starter InnerPhyre
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Hi innerPhyre . .InnerPhyre said:
My understanding is that if it is a clear choice between two lives, then that is a decision a person has to make between them and God . .. The Church takes the stand that concurs with Christ's words .
No Greater Love does a man have that he lay down his life for a friend . . .
And that a mother who lays down her life for her child is fulfilling this love in the greatest way possible . . but the Church does not require that she do so . .
That has been my understanding . .. But also that the threat must be very real and that there is a definite choice betwen on or the other . .
It is not enough that the mother's life is possibily endangered, but actually and really be threatened so that if the abortion is not done, she will indeed die as best as anyone can determine.
Having worked high risk L&D for several years, this situation rarely occurs . .
Peace in Him!
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- Dec 2, 2003
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Well we could also consider it this way....It was an edict I believe from Rome that advised the Bishops on how to handle the situation with administering Communion to those that were found to be either engaging in or promoting Abortion as a Catholic and that was that they were not to be allowed to recieve Communion. To Wit the Bishops then sent dispatches out to this effect. Some though defied this even though it was something that came from Rome and administered Communion anyway.Roald said:
The point is that if I vote for and help in placing into office someone that advocates Abortion, then I too, am participating in advocating and promoting Abortion. The Church does not need to spell this out for me.....Not to mention do you believe that it is appropriate for the Church to get directly involved with how we vote for our leaders outside of the Church except to advise?
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InnerPhyre ,. . if I take the logic you presented above and appliy it to aborition when a mother's life is in danger, then there can be no justification for abortion even when a mother's life is in danger as that would be an act of self defense on the part of the mother . . but Jesus never taught us that we are to kill another in order to defend ourselves. . .InnerPhyre said:
Does this fit your beliefs?
Peace in Him!
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And then there are saints like Joan of Arc who led armies into battle!ShannonMcMorland said:
There are two different issues here . . one is personal self defense . . the other is the defense of country and way of life for a great number of people . .
Shanon . . could you sit by and let someone murder your children and do nothing to try to stop him, even if it meant killing him to do so?
The Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is very, very narrow . . it means though shalt not "murder" . . meaning premeditated, delibertate, unprovoked murder . .
There is nothing in the bible that tells us killing another for a just reason is indefensable . .
I think you would find protecting the lives of your children would be a defensable reason to take the life of another if you had no other option . . no?
Peace in Him!
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I think the turn the other check is generally misunderstood because we fail to understand the culture and times Jesus was in . .Abba said:
Then, if someone hit you (imagine someone slapping you on the face . . it is their palm, right?) they it you with the flat of their palm. If you turned the other check (literally) and they tried to strike you again, they would be forced to backhand you . . now, this demeaned them if you forced them to do so . . you would be preventing them from hitting you again and demonstrating the error of their actions plainly without a word or fight.
Same with the admonishion of carrying a load the extra mile . . the Romans were able to force someone to carry something, but only for a mile . . if they made someone carry it for farther then that they could get in serious trouble . . so, carrying it for another mile was something that would put the soldier in a dreadful position . . if you carried it beyond to proscribed limit, you were turning the tables on the soldier and where he initially forced you to carry something against your will, now you would be putting him in a position of begging you to give it back . .very humbling to the soldier, and an action that would make him think twice of forcing someone to his will again . .
The one about the cloak also is the same . . if you were to give them your undergarment, then you wold be essentially naked . . imagine standing in public when soemone made you give them your cloak . . if you took off all your clothes, at least down to your underwear and handed them over as well, how do you think it would make the other person look to everyone around them?
This is what Christ was speaking of . . today these analogies do not hold. . because we are not in the same culture or times . .
What Christ was saying is respond to them in such a way that gently and lovingly shows them their error . .
Peace in Him!
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You don't have to convince methereselittleflower said:
I think that abortion is wrong in all cases. I'm not arguing for abortion. I'm arguing against war. What I'm saying is that since we say a woman shouldn't kill her unborn child to save her own life (I agree that she should not), then why is it alright to conduct a war to save our own lives that we know will result in the death of innocent people?
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Here is the other side of the equation from the CCC:
Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
Peace in Him!
Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
Peace in Him!
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thereselittleflower said:
That makes very good sense. Thank you for your clear and extremely charitable response.
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Do we say that?InnerPhyre said:You don't have to convince me
Are you saying that the CCC is wrong when it comes to legitimate defense and our obligation to so?
Peace in Him!
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You are welcome, and I am glad it made sense.InnerPhyre said:
This whole topic is a very difficult one . .I guess where I am at is understanding the Church's position in regards to legitimate defense, that is is legitimate to insiste on respsect fro one's own right to life, and abortion.
From what I have understood, the argument is legitimately made that if someone has an abortion to save the mother's life, it is not that the mother is trying to kill the baby, the mother is trying to save her life, and so the death of the baby is an unintended consequence of her efforts to save her life . . That it is an act of self defense. It is the use of force necessary, but only that which is necessary.
And according to St. Thomas Aquinas, Sth II-II, 64, 7 corp. art. One is bound to take more care of one's life than of anothers.
So there is more to the story than some are presenting I think
Peace in Him!
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This is what I'm thinking as well. At the very least, my perspective on the way nationalism and war go together has changed drastically.P.O.D. Cincy Warrior said:
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Wiffey
He is my refuge and my fortress...
I believe that abortion is a terrible sin, which should only be allowed to save the life of the mother. Even then, the mother must come to terms with this terrible tragedy and work with her confessor to overcome this grave spiritual burden.
That being said, I do most definitely feel that we as Christians should be reaching out in love to women who have suffered the pain of abortion and have repented. These women are struggling with guilt, shame and depression. I encountered many of these women in my work as a psychiatric nurse. They continue to suffer and feel regret years after their abortions. (while the PC crowd continues to deny abortion-related PTSD).
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian I have been taught that ALL killing (even in self-defense) requires pennance and repentance. Even if the killing is accidental, a person must confess, repent and refrain from holy communion for a time. I may be wrong, but I think that this is true in the Catholic Church as well...(please don't get mad if I am mistaken...)
If you have a question about this that is bothering you, maybe it would be a good idea to speak with your confessor about it. Whenever I have a concern I like to talk it over with my priest ...
in IC XC,
Wiffey
That being said, I do most definitely feel that we as Christians should be reaching out in love to women who have suffered the pain of abortion and have repented. These women are struggling with guilt, shame and depression. I encountered many of these women in my work as a psychiatric nurse. They continue to suffer and feel regret years after their abortions. (while the PC crowd continues to deny abortion-related PTSD).
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian I have been taught that ALL killing (even in self-defense) requires pennance and repentance. Even if the killing is accidental, a person must confess, repent and refrain from holy communion for a time. I may be wrong, but I think that this is true in the Catholic Church as well...(please don't get mad if I am mistaken...)
If you have a question about this that is bothering you, maybe it would be a good idea to speak with your confessor about it. Whenever I have a concern I like to talk it over with my priest ...
in IC XC,
Wiffey
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