Abortion and War

[InnerPhyre]

I've just been wondering about something to myself and I wanted to hear some input from you guys. How can we as Christians, say that we are against abortion to save the life of a mother, yet we support a war in which thousands of innocent people have been killed? Doesn't it seem contradictory?

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

That first of all assumes we support the war-- which we may not...

but I understand your question and can't wait to see some answers! of course for me- I my struggle in this equation is with a right understanding of "just war"- I don't struggle at all with the abortion end of it....

I'm sure there are people who have the exact opposite struggle!

 

[Dream]

It can be argued that a war is fought for a just cause. I don't think most people would make an argument that abortion is for a just cause.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Everyone please read what I said! We're talking about abortion to save the life of the mother here.

 

[StPaul]

I've just been wondering about something to myself and I wanted to hear some input from you guys. How can we as Christians, say that we are against abortion to save the life of a mother, yet we support a war in which thousands of innocent people have been killed? Doesn't it seem contradictory?

We aren't to blindly support war. There are certain cases where war is justifiable, and this is where the Just War doctrine comes into play.

 

[InnerPhyre]

We aren't to blindly support war. There are certain cases where war is justifiable, and this is where the Just War doctrine comes into play.

Ok fine, so why is abortion always wrong then?

 

[SaintGeorge]

Why is murder or suicide always wrong? I see no difference between them and abortion. All three actions take away human life.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Allow me to clarify a bit so we don't stray here. This is directed toward people who support the war in Iraq and also believe that abortion should be made completely illegal. If we can kill innocent civilians in Iraq to secure our own safety, why can't a mother have an abortion to save her life?

 

[PeterPaul]

Abortion is the violation of the right to life of the unborn.

War may be the solution to solve the violation of the living, both unborn and born.

 

[PeterPaul]

oops...my mistake Inner.

 

[Dream]

Everyone please read what I said! We're talking about abortion to save the life of the mother here.

Sorry, it's been a long day and I've just been skimming everything I read.

I'd give you a good response, but I'm too tired to think about it right now. Maybe tommorow.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Abortion is the violation of the right to life of the unborn.

War may be the solution to solve the violation of the living, both unborn and born.

Again, we're talking about saving the life of the mother here. What if you will save the life of the mother by performing abortion? How is that different than dropping bombs on Iraq and killing hundreds or thousands to ensure that we are not killed over here?

 

[PeterPaul]

I think the main difference is intent. If the intention is to save lives, for example of the Iraqis, then it may be justified. If we were invaded, the offensive would truly be a defensive. However, your point is well taken on offense to deter a defense. That is tough to justify.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

How is saving the life of the mom not a "greater good"- particularly if she has other children?

That is what just war hinges upon - is that right - or do I still have it wrong? Thatjust war is like societal self-defense- that the war is seen as the being for the greater good. I might still have the wrong understanding of just war...

 

[PeterPaul]

Excellent thread Inner!

 

[InnerPhyre]

How is saving the life of the mom not a "greater good"- particularly if she has other children?

That is what just war hinges upon - is that right - or do I still have it wrong? Thatjust war is like societal self-defense- that the war is seen as the being for the greater good. I might still have the wrong understanding of just war...

These are the same questions I am asking. If there is such a thing as just war, shouldn't the early Christians have raged against their Roman oppressors? Isn't having your family thrown to lions or slaughtered by gladiators cause for war? Why didn't they fight? What did they know that we do not?

 

[StPaul]

Ok fine, so why is abortion always wrong then?

In your scenario, two lives are at stake...

There are four ways for the end to play out:

1) Both Mother and Baby Live (by Miracle)
2) Baby Lives, Mother dies (as predicted by giving birth)
3) Mother Lives, Baby Dies (Aborted)
4) Both Mother and Baby Dies

Case one is putting trust in God,... and Humans can make mistakes in predictions.

Case two, mother gives birth to baby but dies in process. There is no other way to show more love of life than to give yours for another, which is right in line with Christian teaching. God loves us (and life) so much that He died for us (his children). By a Mother giving her life for her child, she is giving her Child a chance to live life (something that she has already experienced).

Case three, the baby is aborted. The child has no chance to live life, but the mother continues to live. It is the only outcome that the results can be certain, but trusting in man, not God.

Case four, a tragedy. It could happen that for whatever reason, no matter what you do Both end up dying.

By looking at these four cases, you can almost quantify how much more you are placing your trust in God when you allow the Baby to live. It is for this reason why Abortion is so frowned upon (that, and we have the ability to debate about these topics, while the unborn cannot advocate for themselves)

This is different than war, because war can be motivated by different reasons,... not just reasoning out survival.

Edited to add: In the war in Iraq, we are not targeting innocent lives,... while abortion in any way you look at it is targeting an innocent life.

 

[wellab]

Ok fine, so why is abortion always wrong then?

Abortion is the direct killing of an innocent unborn being.
Murder is the direct killing of an innocent living being.
War is not necessarily the direct killing of an innocent being. There are several modes and outcomes of war. In a Just War, enemies are destroyed (on purpose) to end some type of egregious behavior. In an Unjust War, I believe the outcome does not justify the means and the outcome would be worse than if things were left alone.

In WWII we helped stop Hitler from killing innocent Jews. Hitler was at war with the Jews, and murdered them for no other reason than they were Jewish and they didn't fit his Super Race. We killed many Nazis and Nazi sympathizers directly to stop their heinous slaughter of Jews. We also probably killed some innocent people in the process. It was not our intent. It was indirect or unintentional.

I think that those of us who believe the Iraq war is Just, believe that if any innocent people get killed, it would be considered unintentional casualties. That is what the Pope was and is concerned about in any war. However, war supporters believe the greater threat of leaving the enemies we fight (and kill) to be left alone and thereby regroup are a huge threat that cannot be ignored and should be conquered (just as Hitler and the Nazis were conquered in WWII). We are fighting a new type of war and mistakes will be made, they are not intentional mistakes. They are byproducts of war and should be minimized as much as possible. But letting Islamic Fascist nuts kill innocent people around the globe is not and should not be tolerated just because we are afraid "some" innocent might be killed unintentionally in the process. If we had thought that way in WWII, the Nazis would have taken over half the world, and Hitler would have made the biggest totalitarian regime in the world. And quite possibly destroyed the US and taken over every continent.

Putting your head in the sand and hoping things will go away is not a way to fight evil. I believe we are fighting an evil force as bad or worse than the Nazis and the SS.

What is important to remember is that we went into Iraq and toppled the regime with very few casualities. The militant uprising that we have been seeing in the past several months is bigger and nastier than I believe we expected. This is where all the killing is going on now. But we cannot leave now. We must continue. And the results of rebuilding the new Iraq are not being shown on tv because the media is mostly in support of John Kerry, so much of the good that is happening is hidden and that means people see the killing day to day and none of the stuff our troops are doing to help rebuild and train the Iraqis to be on their own.

 

[PeterPaul]

But the argument used is that Iraq is/was a potential threat to the States. This was the reason for the war. It was an argument of survival. So, I certainly see the parallels Inner is trying to make.

 

[Roald]

A just cause is never sufficient to justify any action.

The intentional killing of a human being is intrinsically evil and never justifiable.

A just war cannot be a war that intentionally seeks to kill human beings, though death is an understood consequence of war.

A just war is always a defensive response to an imminent threat or an aggressive attack by an offender with malicious intentions. A fetus cannot not have malicious intentions.