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Abortion and Eschatology

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Tissue

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If you believe in heaven and hell, and you believe infants and children who do not understand Jesus and the Christian message etc. will go to heaven automatically, then why do you not rejoice with every aborted child? A dead baby is horrible, but in light of heaven and the presence of one more soul with the Lord for all eternity, is that not a victory?

At the very least, isn't it better that a child be aborted than be born and grow up, when they may decide not to accept Christ and ultimately be damned to hell?
 

ebia

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If you believe in heaven and hell, and you believe infants and children who do not understand Jesus and the Christian message etc. will go to heaven automatically, then why do you not rejoice with every aborted child? A dead baby is horrible, but in light of heaven and the presence of one more soul with the Lord for all eternity, is that not a victory?

At the very least, isn't it better that a child be aborted than be born and grow up, when they may decide not to accept Christ and ultimately be damned to hell?
By the same token why not take a semi-automatic rifle and take up walking into churches just after the confession and/or baptism and gunning people down before they can commit a sin?

If you reduce the Judeo/Christian message to a cardboard cut-out don't be surprised if it looks a bit wooden and the different bits don't hang together well.
 
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wannabeadesigirl

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That's hardly an eschatology question...

Part of being a Christian is living a Christ like life, one that is full of faith and works. If you abort a baby you are denying it the opportunity to live a life knowing Jesus and living like him, which is what Christianity is about. So I do believe that a baby who is aborted goes to heaven, but his experience of it will not be as poignant and sweet as someone who lived a Christlike life on a corrupt earth and then died to enter paradise. In a sense it robs the infant of the full grace and beauty of heaven and that's not exactly fair.
 
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lenpettis74

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If you believe in heaven and hell, and you believe infants and children who do not understand Jesus and the Christian message etc. will go to heaven automatically, then why do you not rejoice with every aborted child? A dead baby is horrible, but in light of heaven and the presence of one more soul with the Lord for all eternity, is that not a victory?

At the very least, isn't it better that a child be aborted than be born and grow up, when they may decide not to accept Christ and ultimately be damned to hell?

Why do we claim to be proponents of humanity and yet not allow humans to be humans?

There are only four differences between a human and a fetus:

1. Size or Physical Appearance – Do humans lose value when they don’t look right? Does size equal value? Men are generally larger than women. Does that mean men are more human than women? Shaquille O’Neil is larger than Hillary Clinton. Does that mean Hillary Clinton is less human than Shaq? The term used to describe the destruction of groups of people based on their physical appearance is ethnic cleansing or genocide. But human value transcends physical appearance. Therefore, “not looking right” cannot disqualify a human being from being valuable.
2. Level of Development – Is a person’s value defined by his abilities, by what he can or can’t do? Do we forfeit our rights as human persons because we don’t have the capabilities others have? Do stronger, more capable, more intelligent people have more rights than others? Do human beings become disposable simply because at their level of development they are helpless, defenseless, and dependent? Human value transcends abilities or the lack of abilities. Therefore, missing abilities cannot disqualify human value.
3. Environment – Do humans forfeit their worth when they change locations? Baby Rachel was born prematurely at 24 weeks. She weighed only 1 lb. 9 oz., but dropped to just under 1 lb. soon after. She was so small she could rest in the palm of her daddy’s hand. She was a tiny, living, person. Heroic measures were taken to save her life. If a doctor had killed Rachel we would have recoiled in horror. However, if this same little girl was inches away from the outside world, resting inside her mother’s womb, she could be legally killed by abortion. Clearly, one’s environment can’t be the deciding factor. Changing locations is morally trivial. Environment has no bearing on who we are.
4. Degree of Dependency – Is human value determined by our degree of dependency on others? The unborn’s dependency on his mother for sustenance is irrelevant to the baby’s value. No baby is “viable” if degree of dependency matters. All babies need their mothers for feeding whether via blood (an umbilical cord), breast, or bottle. Human beings may be dependent on others for their survival, but they aren’t dependent on others for their value. All physically dependent people are at risk if degree of dependency determines their value – those dependent on kidney machines, pacemakers, and insulin would have to be declared non-persons. Dependency does not determine worth.

I find your argument about abortion somehow being a blessing as abhorrent and has no place in true Christian life. We need to pray that this country has a change of heart and to overturn Roe v. Wade. As for your argument of legality... slavery was legal once too, and thanks to the hard work of evangelical Christians it was abolished. Let us pray that we can make that happen with abortion too.

(the above 4 quotes may be viewed in their full context if you google S.L.E.D.)
 
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lenpettis74

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How does that connect with her question, which implicity accepts that unborn children are human - at least hypothetically?

Hypothetically?!?!?:doh:

I object to the idea that abortion is EVER a blessing in ANY instance, and I listed the items in my post to clarify my position. The point she made seems like nothing more than reprehensible rationalization for one who has no clue what Christianity truly is. We as Christians must speak for those without a voice, and protect those who cannot protect themselves. We rally against the likes of Michael Vick for killing dogs (not that we shouldn't btw) but we turn a blind eye to the holocaust happening in our backyard. Shame on the Christian who turns a blind eye, rationalizes, or excuses it!:mad:
 
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godanswers

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The shedding of innocent blood is an abomination to God, always. While I believe there will be millions of babies in Heaven I also believe there will be many women lost because they can't face the guilt of what they've done. Repentance becomes harder when the sin is more difficult to face. It's the murdering mothers that we should be praying for and showing compassion to. There's nothing we can do for the babies anymore. We're not even sure what God does with them, we can only believe in His goodness and that He is just concerning their souls.

Sometimes it is better that a man had never been born, as in the case of Judas Iscariot. But abortion is a woman playing "god" with a life she is comissioned to keep alive. Only God's will should be done especially concerning innocent life.

All that being said, abortion is not unforgivable. Indeed, the guilt of the act may turn some women towards seeking God's answer for their emptiness. We should trust in Him to guide us in every situation. If we hate, we have the potential to murder so we are no better than women who abort their babies. It is our job to love those women and lead them to Christ. But if you make excuses for sin you will never see a need to repent of them.
 
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ebia

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Hypothetically?!?!?:doh:
What I mean is that the premise of the question accepts that.

I object to the idea that abortion is EVER a blessing in ANY instance, and I listed the items in my post to clarify my position. The point she made seems like nothing more than reprehensible rationalization for one who has no clue what Christianity truly is. We as Christians must speak for those without a voice, and protect those who cannot protect themselves. We rally against the likes of Michael Vick for killing dogs (not that we shouldn't btw) but we turn a blind eye to the holocaust happening in our backyard. Shame on the Christian who turns a blind eye, rationalizes, or excuses it!:mad:
I don't disagree with what you say, but you haven't answered her question.
 
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lenpettis74

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What I mean is that the premise of the question accepts that.


I don't disagree with what you say, but you haven't answered her question.

Her question is:

" isn't it better that a child be aborted than be born and grow up, when they may decide not to accept Christ and ultimately be damned to hell?"

quoting one of my posts:
"I find your argument about abortion somehow being a blessing as abhorrent and has no place in true Christian life."

What part of the question did I leave unanswered? With respect, I don't think I was at all ambiguous about my answer.

Sorry if I got snippy with you, this is a hot button issue for me. I tend to get a bit passionate.:prayer:
 
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Tissue

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That's hardly an eschatology question...

In light of the ultimate good represented by an infinite, eternity in heaven, isn't any finite evil worthwhile to procure it?

Our eschatological beliefs have ramifications on our other beliefs. This is one of them.

Part of being a Christian is living a Christ like life, one that is full of faith and works. If you abort a baby you are denying it the opportunity to live a life knowing Jesus and living like him, which is what Christianity is about. So I do believe that a baby who is aborted goes to heaven, but his experience of it will not be as poignant and sweet as someone who lived a Christlike life on a corrupt earth and then died to enter paradise. In a sense it robs the infant of the full grace and beauty of heaven and that's not exactly fair.

But it is infinitely better than the possible alternative: hell. Right?
 
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Tissue

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Why do we claim to be proponents of humanity and yet not allow humans to be humans?

Your question depends entirely upon how one defines what it is to be human (or, more properly, a person).

I find your argument about abortion somehow being a blessing as abhorrent and has no place in true Christian life. We need to pray that this country has a change of heart and to overturn Roe v. Wade. As for your argument of legality... slavery was legal once too, and thanks to the hard work of evangelical Christians it was abolished. Let us pray that we can make that happen with abortion too.

(the above 4 quotes may be viewed in their full context if you google S.L.E.D.)

I didn't make an argument. I asked questions.

This isn't necessarily meant to be a discussion of whether abortion is proper or not, or whether or not fetuses are people. It's meant to be an analysis of abortion in light of our eschatological beliefs. Of course, our thoughts on those other realms of the abortion discussion will come into play, but let's not lose that focus; I don't want this topic to become side-tracked.
 
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Tissue

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Hypothetically?!?!?:doh:

I object to the idea that abortion is EVER a blessing in ANY instance, and I listed the items in my post to clarify my position. The point she made seems like nothing more than reprehensible rationalization for one who has no clue what Christianity truly is. We as Christians must speak for those without a voice, and protect those who cannot protect themselves. We rally against the likes of Michael Vick for killing dogs (not that we shouldn't btw) but we turn a blind eye to the holocaust happening in our backyard. Shame on the Christian who turns a blind eye, rationalizes, or excuses it!:mad:

It's a simple question. I'm not rationalizing this for those ignorant of Christianity, nor am I ignorant of Christianity.

In light of your beliefs of eternity, and in light of the infinite goodness of heaven and the finite evil of abortion, is it not fair to say that, ultimately, good is achieved through abortion? Would it not be better for the child to be aborted and go to heaven than to live life and (possibly) be damned to hell?
 
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ebia

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Her question is:

" isn't it better that a child be aborted than be born and grow up, when they may decide not to accept Christ and ultimately be damned to hell?"

quoting one of my posts:
"I find your argument about abortion somehow being a blessing as abhorrent and has no place in true Christian life."

What part of the question did I leave unanswered? With respect, I don't think I was at all ambiguous about my answer.

Sorry if I got snippy with you, this is a hot button issue for me. I tend to get a bit passionate.:prayer:
If I can summarise, her question was
"If a fetus is a fully human child that will go to heaven when aborted, why isn't that better than risking the fetus living, sinning, and going to hell"
and your answer summarises as "because the fetus is a fully human child".
 
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