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If the average person that supports pro-choice on abortion expressed abhorrence of abortion as easily as you have expressed you abhorrence of white supremacy, this analogy would be make more sense.jayem said:I agree with the responses that have been offered so far, but I'll put it another way. In no way whatsoever do I agree with the Aryan Nations or the KKK. I think espousing white supremacy is abhorrent. But I don't think government should criminalize the expression of those views. So if I support the right of the KKK to hold a peaceful rally, does that mean I'm "pro racism?" Of course not. It only means that if criminalization is the proposed solution to a problem, then the solution is worse than the problem itself.
I will discuss these 2 points, as they are closely related.TommyS said:
- A fetus is not a human. (Or, at least until a certain stage).
- A fetus must have all the qualities of a human to be a human.
nor does a fetus before 22 days, so can we kill them then?Elrond52 said:He was talking, after he said this that a baby had a heartbeat at 22 days
Cancer doesn't have a heartbeat and isn't human!
I think the main problem is the arbitrary drawing of a line. about the only place one can really draw a line, if one does not accept shades of grey, is conception, but even then this is itself grey, since is a concieved embryo outside the uterus (IV fertilisation) governed by this, since it requires additional human input in order for it to have a chance at life.seebs said:The interesting question is whether all things which are biologically human have yet attained "personhood", which is not an entirely trivial question.
I would feel a lot more comfortable with "it's a person from the instant of conception" question if I had a good explanation for why 75% of the people who have ever lived never even had differentiated neural tissue.
There is nothing natural or nature since we are always apllying our medical knowledge, our technical knowledge.Katydid said:It is a natural occurence.
... chosen by nature not an individual
Katydid said:TScott,
Katydid said:where did you find this out?
We don't ask when life begins.Holly3278 said:Well,
But when does life begin you may ask? Life begins at conception!
It's no slippery slope, just a rational extension of the argument which displays its inconsistency. And your point about IV Fertilization is well taken. My brother and his wife would not have their child today without that process, which necessarily results in the destruction of fertilized eggs. Why would anyone want my brother to not have a beautiful son?Jet Black said:I think the main problem is the arbitrary drawing of a line. about the only place one can really draw a line, if one does not accept shades of grey, is conception, but even then this is itself grey, since is a concieved embryo outside the uterus (IV fertilisation) governed by this, since it requires additional human input in order for it to have a chance at life.
The problem is that if we treat every fetus as a human, shouldn't we name them at conception and have a funeral for every miscarriage, no matter how early (we might have a funeral at every menstrual cycle after which a woman has had unprotected sex, since it is plausible that the egg might be a miscarriage, and it would be a bit harsh to miss one) - we are treating them as fully human after all, so I see no real reason not to. (someone point out to me if I am sliding along some slippery slope here)
Gallego said:We don't ask when life begins.
What we are debating is when is this life human?
1- Please, be polite. There is no need to say that things.Magisterium said:1- Guys! What's the problem here?!! I assume all of you can read!
...
2- As I stated before, when two members of a species procreate, the offspring will necessarilly be a member of that species. In other words, when two humans procreate, the offspring is necessarilly human. It's a scientific law!
I've already explained to you that a seed is not in an organismic state. I also explained to you just what an organismic state is. (it's a state of animation).Gallego said:1- Please, be polite. There is no need to say that things.
2- Then a seed is a tree. Then a miscarriage will result in a funeral.
organismic state (by you):Magisterium said:I've already explained to you that a seed is not in an organismic state. I also explained to you just what an organismic state is. (it's a state of animation).
So no, a seed is not a tree, just as a woman's unfertilized egg is not a human being. Do you remember the explanation?
Additionally, a miscarraige can indeed result in a funeral. In fact, there are many psychologists who recommend this practice to aid in obtaining closure and healing when one loses a child before birth.
The question of "can" it do these things, is different than "is it already doing" these things. However, I will concede that perhaps a seed may indeed be considered in a dormant organismic state. This may very well be the case. I'll have to consult with a biology professor and get back to you.Gallego said:organismic state (by you):
organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction (emphasis added)
A seed can metabolice (-> I don't know the exact verb)? Yes, it can react
Can it grow? Yes
Can it reaction to stimuli? Yes, to water or to light
Can it reproduct? Yes, when growed
And, opposite as what you said, the seed is not analogous to an unfertilized egg, because the seed has ben fertilized: it has male & female parts. It only needs growth.
When a miscarriage? Do you go to the civil register to register its death?
So, the analogies that doesn't serve to you, they are useless and out of topic.Magisterium said:However, this really has no bearing on the topic of this thread. The fact is, once a woman's egg is fertilized, it immediately qualifies as life and that life is necessarilly human. This fact stands whether or not a plant seed is dormant life or not.
The problem is that you said that if human life begins at conception then a seed is a tree. It turns out, that a seed is not a tree just as fetus is not an adult. However, the species of a seed is fixed just as the species of the fertilized egg is fixed. The fact is, we're discussing whether or not a fertilized egg is a human. I've already explained that it is by all scientific definitions. You threw in the bit about the seed being a tree and we got side-tracked.Gallego said:So, the analogies that doesn't serve to you, they are useless and out of topic.
OK, then why are you debating?
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