Pure Paradox
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msjones21 said:
So, instead of giving him away, you're going to kill him? How much less pain/regret will this option afford you?
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Abortion: A question of choice
- Thread starter Jonathan David
- Start date
So, instead of giving him away, you're going to kill him? How much less pain/regret will this option afford you?
Pure Paradox - That comment could have probably been worded a little more nicely. I agree that msjones21 probably would be dealing with even harsher feelings if she had aborted than the difficult decision she chose of giving her son up for adoption. She made the right choice, so be a little nice.
loveisallyouneed - It would be an interesting thing to see, trying to get father's rights recongnized. It would never happen in this day and age. Men don't have rights anymore. Their position in society has been all but eliminated. Women don't think they need men and they are determined to make sure men's opinions don't count. Just like comments on these abortion threads....women tell men they have no right to be pro-life because they are men. That really upsets me. But, anyway, it is something to think about, but I doubt the father's will ever have a leg to stand on. He will just have to sit back silently and watch the mother kill his child.
Tracie
loveisallyouneed - It would be an interesting thing to see, trying to get father's rights recongnized. It would never happen in this day and age. Men don't have rights anymore. Their position in society has been all but eliminated. Women don't think they need men and they are determined to make sure men's opinions don't count. Just like comments on these abortion threads....women tell men they have no right to be pro-life because they are men. That really upsets me. But, anyway, it is something to think about, but I doubt the father's will ever have a leg to stand on. He will just have to sit back silently and watch the mother kill his child.
Tracie
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Considering the fact I've never had an abortion I can't honestly assess which option would carry more pain and guilt. I do know that when I got pregnant with my son I was in a financial position to maintain an extremely healthy pregnancy and give birth in a decent hospital. I was able to afford being pregnant. Some women do not have that luxury. My decision was based upon the relationship situation I was in with his biological father and the fact that I was very young and not ready to raise a child. Do I feel guilty? Of course. People claim abortion is the easy way out...well guess what? I've been accused of taking the easy way out by others for choosing adoption. I feel guilty because I know that I have a son out there who looks like me, has my mannerisms, and is being raised knowing that I couldn't take care of him.Pure Paradox said:
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Tracie said:
Tracie,
As a man, I just want to add to your comment. I DON'T feel that all of my rights have been taken away or that I am invisible... quite the contrary really (as "masculinity" continues to enjoy tremendous amounts of privilege in society). It is also important to remember that laws are enacted/shaped by politicians and courts... both the political and the legal institution have heavy over-representation of men... thus, clearly there are other, and socially powerful, men who agree with me.
I posted something here (about 7 posts ago I think) about the importance of having pre-sex conversations between partners... and I think that addresses how men are invovled in decision-making. A part of me wants to say to the men, who think that they are vicitimized, if you aren't mature/smart enough to have had that conversation... basically, deal with it. I know that sounds callous but ultimately, someone has to be responsible. It makes more sense that it be the person who is going to carry the baby... and I don't think that this is a perfect answer. Ideally, every pregnancy would be feasible and desired... the fact that they aren't and that we know that abortion will happen regardless (access or no access), leads me to believe that currently, having women make the final call makes the most sense.
Peace.
JD
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JD - I think probably you don't feel that way because you are young (same age as me) and you've never known a different way. We were raised to think men aren't an important part of a family equation. I, personally, wasn't taught that in my own home, but you get it in school, tv, media, etc. As a girl, I was taught I can do anything a man can do. Never let a man tell you what to do. (it wasn't even "don't let anyone tell you what to do"...specifically MAN) Things like that. Those are the kinds of things girls are taught.
As an adult, I realize...yes there are things a man can do that a woman can't. And vice versa. I realize that in a marriage, sometimes you have to let your husband make decisions. And I am grateful that my husband does! I realize that I'm not going to die or anything without myhusband, but my life is much, much richer having him in my life.
Ok..maybe men's legal rights haven't been totally stripped away, but you don't think their standing in society has been? Men are portrayed in media as helpless morons who would not survive without a woman taking care of them! Can you think of a sitcom on tv that has a leading man who actually makes decisions and by the end of the episode the woman hasn't had to get him out of some kind of trouble? It's sad. Or, maybe it's true and I got the only guy on the planet who can take care of himself, make decisions, is extremely intelligent and totally loves me. That could be it.
Tracie
As an adult, I realize...yes there are things a man can do that a woman can't. And vice versa. I realize that in a marriage, sometimes you have to let your husband make decisions. And I am grateful that my husband does! I realize that I'm not going to die or anything without myhusband, but my life is much, much richer having him in my life.
Ok..maybe men's legal rights haven't been totally stripped away, but you don't think their standing in society has been? Men are portrayed in media as helpless morons who would not survive without a woman taking care of them! Can you think of a sitcom on tv that has a leading man who actually makes decisions and by the end of the episode the woman hasn't had to get him out of some kind of trouble? It's sad. Or, maybe it's true and I got the only guy on the planet who can take care of himself, make decisions, is extremely intelligent and totally loves me. That could be it.
Tracie
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Oh yeah....also....that example I gave about the husband whose wife had the abortion. I'm sure he felt he was being perfectly responsible. I doubt he had any idea that abortion would have even been an option in this case. What if a man takes every precaution necessary, has ever discussion possible, they get pregnant and the girl decides she doesn't want a baby. Does he have a say then? Then is it ok for him to not want his kid to die?
Tracie
Tracie
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Tracie said:Ok..maybe men's legal rights haven't been totally stripped away, but you don't think their standing in society has been? Men are portrayed in media as helpless morons who would not survive without a woman taking care of them! Can you think of a sitcom on tv that has a leading man who actually makes decisions and by the end of the episode the woman hasn't had to get him out of some kind of trouble? It's sad. Or, maybe it's true and I got the only guy on the planet who can take care of himself, make decisions, is extremely intelligent and totally loves me. That could be it.
Tracie
I think that there is a fundamental difference between media portrayal and material reality... although the two are often connected.
I totally agree that men are often portrayed as "clueless, horny, jocks" or some other simple and meaningless sterotype... but so too are women (the "
"nag", the "neat-freak", the "princess", etc.). Sitcoms tend to operate almost purely on sterotypes. However, men continue to hold the vast majority of power in our society. Politicians, doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc are all heavily male occupations... something that is also reflected in many sitcoms (good ol' Cosby Show).
So, I guess there is just a difference between somebody being (or being protrayed as) a bit of a doofus and the reality that men have too much power in society and women remain largely socially and economically marginalized... and of course there are exceptions. I'm just talking about patterns.
Peace.
JD
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Tracie said:
Tracie,
I don't know stats here (or if they even exist) but my sense is (anecdotally) that this is a vast minority of cases (I don't know a single one).
However, I believe that if I and my partner had agreed not to have an abortion, we used birth control, she got pregnant and changed her mind, I would indeed be angry. I would feel betrayed and I would mourn the loss of my child... but I believe that it would be her right because she is the one who it affects most... and most intimately. It might end our relationship but I think that it is important that the final decision be hers.
Peace.
JD
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For men it's sort of a catch 22. They really do get the short end of the stick in most cases. If they are not ready to be a parent society tells them they must be a man and own up to their responsibility. Even if they didn't want a child or didn't want to have one with the woman they impregnated, he is obligated to provide for the child until he or she is 18 years old. It doesn't matter if the girl trapped him or not. Society tells them to be the man. They are labeled as cretins when they try and pressure their wife or girlfriend to have an abortion. But then in the rare instances in which he wants the child but the woman doesn't he has no say-so. He has no choice but to be a father even when he doesn't want to be and he has no choice but to be denied the right to be a father if the woman chooses abortion. It's a very sticky situation.
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Good point msjones.
JD - I have no doubt you'd think differently were you actually in that situation.
Tracie
JD - I have no doubt you'd think differently were you actually in that situation.
Tracie
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Tracie said:
I don't think so. Again, I am not saying that it is a good situation, or even totally "fair" if a woman changes her mind after having talked about it with her partner and becomming pregnant... but, in the grand scheme, criminalizing abortion because of these possibilities seems to have the "bad" outweighing the "good" (stupid words to use in this kind of conversation... I know).
Peace.
JD
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Tracie said:JD - I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Tracie
Fair enough... and thanks for being so perfectly civil and respectful. You are a blessing to the forum. I look forward to having more conversations with you.
Peace.
JD
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xtxArchxAngelxtx
Peace Keeper
**shrugs**Blessed75 said:
Truth hurts and what kitty said was 100% accurate and truthful.
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