abolish abortion

[mindlight]

For anyone who is curious, I believe this is the website he is referring to.

Think she is a female Baptist, but thanks for the link. She appears then to be arguing for abolitionism.

So, abolitionism appears to be an attempt to impose a Christian theocratic response on a sinful world. Abortion is murder and should be abolished. So there is a distinction to be made with Pro-Life, which is more secular and inclusive in its language.

The choice that comes with this approach is a move to a theocratic arrangement where Christians force their rules on the rest of the people. Historically, in a fallen world, this approach has not always worked very well. Justinian was followed by heretics, rebellion, war and the rise of Islam. Theodosius by Barbarian invasions, European Christendom by the secularist atheism of the French Revolution, Russian tsardom by the anti-Christian communists. If you do not have a strong king (with heirs) or the numbers to support this policy, it will only result in a backlash that is more dangerous than the status quo before you started. In the USA, the support for a strict Christian approach is not yet a majority viewpoint even if a majority call themselves Christians. Also, do you want the USA to become the kind of theocracy where your choices are not given space to be wrong for a season?

I think the German system is the best one. It recognises that life begins at conception, but it is realistic about what people are going to do when facing a birth they never wanted and allows abortion after counselling for the first 12 weeks. It looks at the reasons why young mothers may be considering abortion, e.g., lack of financial support, the breakdown of the relationship, and it ensures that the man pays his dues and that the state supports the mother's welfare. Adoption is possible for mothers who cannot afford to bring up the child. Pro-Life and abolitionists in the USA appear to focus just on the issue of abortion rather than the broader range of issues related to it.

Another reason I oppose abolitionists is more brutal. Who is killing whom? If atheists and liberal Christians want to kill their babies, doesn't that mean a statistically lower chance of atheist and liberal Christian children? Let the wicked slay the wicked - that is just another example of judgment on sin.

 

[Hyacinth Anglin]

For anyone who is curious, I believe this is the website he is referring to.

yes that is.

 

[Jermayn]

Unfortunately, western cultural has accepted abortion and it will be very difficult to get rid of it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

So theocracy backdoored through a minor issue.

 

[mindlight]

Unfortunately, western cultural has accepted abortion and it will be very difficult to get rid of it.

Ancient Rome accepted abortion, and that and gonorrhea were a major reason why they did not have enough manpower to defend the frontiers from Barbarian invasions. All civilizations fall in the end. Abortion will be one of the reasons Western civilization falls.

 

[Hyacinth Anglin]

First of all, I am not just forcing my Christian views. If you think that then do you believe the same about america forcing the fact that there are punishments for murdering a live human being.

Yes, there is a distinction between pro-life and abolitionism. Pro-life believes we should just go with what the senate says, because they have authority over us and they make the rules. Well yes, but we should "fear the Lord our God" first and foremost. God says murdering a living human being in the womb is wrong. Abortion should be abolished right now, not later. Pro-life has been waiting for 20+ years now.

You say nothing will come out of this on good terms, but we just need to follow what God says in his word ( LEVITICUS 20:1-5.) Do your part in Leviticus, He says "he will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ." He also says Philippians 1:21 "to live is Christ and to die is gain," so don't worry about the future (Proverbs 29:25 says, "the fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe.") Nothing happens without first passing through the loving hands of the father.

You mentioned not being able to be wrong for a season. What if I killed my annoying neighbor down the street whom I wish I had never met. Then I told myself I would stop crimes soon, but I just needed to do this real quick. And the court said "oh ok. She is fine let her go. She was not thinking strait." I could commit crimes all I wanted. It would not hurt me. But what if this is that season where God comes back. In the long run I would be judged by the only just judge. At the day of judgement. And thrown into the flaming pit for eternity. It would not be very loving if Christians did not come along side me and say that it was wrong and I need to repent.

This is just a little for now, but I will write more later. I apologize it took so long, I had written it and it deleted.

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes, there is a distinction between pro-life and abolitionism. Pro-life believes we should just go with what the senate says, because they have authority over us and they make the rules. Well yes, but we should "fear the Lord our God" first and foremost. God says murdering a living human being in the womb is wrong. Abortion should be abolished right now, not later. Pro-life has been waiting for 20+ years now.

Other than using more strident language, what’s the difference between your actions and those of the do nothing pro lifers?

 

[mindlight]

First of all, I am not just forcing my Christian views. If you think that then do you believe the same about america forcing the fact that there are punishments for murdering a live human being.

Yes, there is a distinction between pro-life and abolitionism. Pro-life believes we should just go with what the senate says, because they have authority over us and they make the rules. Well yes, but we should "fear the Lord our God" first and foremost. God says murdering a living human being in the womb is wrong. Abortion should be abolished right now, not later. Pro-life has been waiting for 20+ years now.

You say nothing will come out of this on good terms, but we just need to follow what God says in his word ( LEVITICUS 20:1-5.) Do your part in Leviticus, He says "he will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ." He also says Philippians 1:21 "to live is Christ and to die is gain," so don't worry about the future (Proverbs 29:25 says, "the fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe.") Nothing happens without first passing through the loving hands of the father.

You mentioned not being able to be wrong for a season. What if I killed my annoying neighbor down the street whom I wish I had never met. Then I told myself I would stop crimes soon, but I just needed to do this real quick. And the court said "oh ok. She is fine let her go. She was not thinking strait." I could commit crimes all I wanted. It would not hurt me. But what if this is that season where God comes back. In the long run I would be judged by the only just judge. At the day of judgement. And thrown into the flaming pit for eternity. It would not be very loving if Christians did not come along side me and say that it was wrong and I need to repent.

This is just a little for now, but I will write more later. I apologize it took so long, I had written it and it deleted.

1) Can you prevent a desperate mother from killing her baby? - If not then who do you think can? Capital punishment is different and is supported by people from all worldviews in the USA and not elsewhere.
2) Who is guilty of the sin of murder if she has an abortion? - just to be clear it is not your sin if she does this, it is hers, she is accountable to God for it.
3) Are the laws of the land within the remit of the church to change? The church does not have the necessary majority in our democracy? So the only way they can be changed is by disregarding the democratic system and imposing a theocratic law on unbelievers.

In the US context I think the state by state approach is probably the best one rather than a Federal law imposed on everyone.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Other than using more strident language, what’s the difference between your actions and those of the do nothing pro lifers?

It's more theocratic.

 

[Desk trauma]

It's more theocratic.

I was asking about actions, as in actually doing something.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I was asking about actions, as in actually doing something.

So these "abolitionists" then must take more theocratic actions, then?

 

[Desk trauma]

So these "abolitionists" then must take more theocratic actions, then?

If they did anything but cosplay as abolitionists online they might.

 

[mindlight]

I was asking about actions, as in actually doing something.

Denouncing all abortion as murder is an action as is posting about it online. It is also distinct from many prolifers like myself who accept that regulated abortion may save more lives than a blanket condemnation. Admidst all the drama in the American debate the number of children dying each year is twice that in Germany. Cooler heads could save more lives than a partisan political culture with both sides yelling abuse at each other.

 

[Desk trauma]

Denouncing all abortion as murder is an action as is posting about it online.

Right up there with changing the border of your Facebook pic.

 

[RileyG]

It's more theocratic.

I disagree somewhat. There are atheists and agnostics who are pro life and are opposed to abortion. But yes, religion is often mixed in, that’s very true.

 

[RileyG]

Abortion is murder for convenience.

Yup. Selfish and downright cruel.

 

[Desk trauma]

I disagree somewhat. There are atheists and agnostics who are pro life and are opposed to abortion.

I’m going to hazard a guess that none of them are involved in this explicitly religious anti abortion faction we’re discussing here.

 

[RileyG]

I’m going to hazard a guess that none of them are involved in this explicitly religious anti abortion faction we’re discussing here.

That’s true.

 

[RileyG]

Unfortunately, western cultural has accepted abortion and it will be very difficult to get rid of it.

So was slavery in the United States 200 years ago. Thankfully it was later abolished. Hopefully abortion is abolished one day, too.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I disagree somewhat. There are atheists and agnostics who are pro life and are opposed to abortion. But yes, religion is often mixed in, that’s very true.

Unless these anti-abortion atheists are abolitionists, I don't see how that makes 'abolitionist' less theocratic that 'pro-life'. I listened to part of the linked podcast and those 'abolitionsts' were quite theocratic.