Ablaze?

[Archaenfel]

I'll admit it ... I missed the whole mess. I'm going to do some searching on my own, but if somebody could tell me what this whole 'Ablaze' business is about, I'd appreciate it.

 

[DaRev]

It's a program of the LCMS which is intended to reach 100,000,000 people with the Gospel by 2017. The problem is that it's more of a church growth mechanism which isn't working in the least.

 

[BigNorsk]

I'll admit it ... I missed the whole mess. I'm going to do some searching on my own, but if somebody could tell me what this whole 'Ablaze' business is about, I'd appreciate it.

Oh boy, a chance to write history. Well, let's speak in broad speculative strokes. There is a problem perceived by the leadership in the synod. It is that people are not reaching out, not evangelizing.

They talk and ask the people why not. People then explain, they would work day and night tirelessly, but they don't because they don't have the tools, they don't know what to say, they don't know how to go about it. If the synod would but provide something they'd get busy.

So the synod comes up with a program. They provide materials. And do Lutherans then get to work, oh goodness no, some do, but what happens is that many just stop and then start to tear the program apart and everything grinds to a theological discussion halt.

Which then begs the question if they knew so much to start with, then what is the real reason they don't evangelise much? I think it's because they don't want to and no one is going to make them.

I will now run and hide, goodday.

Marv

 

[DaRev]

Oh boy, a chance to write history. Well, let's speak in broad speculative strokes. There is a problem perceived by the leadership in the synod. It is that people are not reaching out, not evangelizing.

They talk and ask the people why not. People then explain, they would work day and night tirelessly, but they don't because they don't have the tools, they don't know what to say, they don't know how to go about it. If the synod would but provide something they'd get busy.

So the synod comes up with a program. They provide materials. And do Lutherans then get to work, oh goodness no, some do, but what happens is that many just stop and then start to tear the program apart and everything grinds to a theological discussion halt.

Which then begs the question if they knew so much to start with, then what is the real reason they don't evangelise much? I think it's because they don't want to and no one is going to make them.

I will now run and hide, goodday.

Marv

Marv, you have a vivid imagination. I'll say that much for ya.

 

[Studeclunker]

Good thing you ran, Marv, I had a rock with your name on it! Grrr... Grrr... Grrr...

Nah, just kidding.

Well, Marv's imaginairy scenario aside... Well... maybe not. Look at it this way, the scenario that Marv described is the fairy tale the leadership in St. Louis is telling. The reality is; that things aren't all quite up to snuff in happy Lutheran land. I've seen this same programme, under different packaging, when I was with the ELCA twenty-five years ago. A lot of smooth talking salesmen come in to tell you how to de-Lutheranize your church to appeal to a wider segment of the population. The first thing they tell you is that the hymnals must go, along with the liturgy. Then they say softly and very persuasively, "well, you know... you don't really need the word Lutheran on your signboard." One is given a slide show of success stories on churches several hundred to over a thousand miles away (ie: the other side of the country) and how these congregations have succeeded in growing their size to ginormous proportions over night.

Ablaze is not a lot different. One is asked to sign on to the liberal agenda and use 'creative worship' to spice things up. The creeds and confessions become very flexible and fluid. They reflect whatever the message of the day is. That message is always inoffensive and stresses the love of God toward you. For instance, in the last Sunday School class I attended, the pastor was asked why the Muslim people hated us so much. Part of the answer he gave is the following:

"Well, we stand on the statement of Christ, I am the way the truth, and the Light. There is no way to the Father but through me. Thus, we as Christians, have to take the stand that there is no other religion except Christianity that is valid. However, that's a bit intolerant."

The fellow answered exactly right till the last sentence.
The supposedly 'traditional' service isnt. The 'contemporary' service feels like something at a quazi-Pentecostal-Calvary Chapel type church. They use the hyms and music from Calvary Chapel and Non-denom books. The choir is ditched for Praise Singers and one finds guitars, electronic keyboards and drums in the sanctuary. In otherwords, the leadership in St. Louis is trying to turn LCMS into one of those mega-church clones.

The sad part is the leadership is ditching our roots of faith to do this church-growth movement. Walther, Law and Gospel, Congregational Authority, the confessions (in thier historically accurate form), and our liturgy are sacrificed for more people in the pews. Not to mention the inherent dis-honesty involved in the 'Contemporary Services.' They give people a different impression of the church. When they find out that the core congregation don't agree with things like Homosexual leadership in the church, Abortion, same sex marriage, etc... they head for the door.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

What happens when the Special "K" club is tossed out? Won't Ablaze! end as well so closely tied to that leadership?

Why 2017? The world is supposed to end 2012, according to my Aztec calendar.

Peace,

Cos

 

[DaRev]

What happens when the Special "K" club is tossed out? Won't Ablaze! end as well so closely tied to that leadership?

One can only pray.

Why 2017?

500th anniversary of the Reformation.

The world is supposed to end 2012, according to my Aztec calendar.

What did they know? I don't see any of them around anymore.

The world was supposed to end on May 5th 2000 according to the Great Pyramid, too.

 

[Till]

I have just read an interview in an ELCE magazine with a pastor from the India Evangelical Lutheran Church. He states that his church's vision is "in collaboration with LCMS World Mission, we will share the Good News of Jesus with 25 million unreached or uncommited people by 2017".

While it does not explicitly say so, I guess this is part of the Ablaze iniative. Obviously I do not really know what Ablaze is but I cannot help but feeling that this drive towards more engagement in mission and evangelism is very, very good.

 

[Archaenfel]

Well, the problem with initiatives such as these ( which I have stated elsewhere ) is that in focusing so much on evangelism, the church neglects the needs of existing members.

I have issues ... issues that I have sought to address through my church because (1) they have published literature saying they could help, and (2) because I don't have any resources to help myself otherwise.

My church fell on its face, apologized for not really having any aid to offer me, and suggested that I seek more professional help ... even though I have no resources to do so ( LFS supposedly examines your resources and works out an appropriate fee ... such people are no doubt the same ones which would've sold me on a $150,000 house five years ago ).

That is the legacy of Ablaze: ignoring the needs of the parishoners and re-ordering the service, rather that going through the trouble to create anything truly special.

 

[DaRev]

While it does not explicitly say so, I guess this is part of the Ablaze iniative. Obviously I do not really know what Ablaze is but I cannot help but feeling that this drive towards more engagement in mission and evangelism is very, very good.

The IELC is a partner church of the LCMS and is involved with the Ablaze program. The real problem with the program is that it does not address bringing people into the Church. The membership of the LCMS congregations has steadily declined in the years that this program has been in effect. It is, in my mind, a tragic failure that the synod continues to pour money into.

 

[RadMan]

Well, the problem with initiatives such as these ( which I have stated elsewhere ) is that in focusing so much on evangelism, the church neglects the needs of existing members.

I have issues ... issues that I have sought to address through my church because (1) they have published literature saying they could help, and (2) because I don't have any resources to help myself otherwise.

My church fell on its face, apologized for not really having any aid to offer me, and suggested that I seek more professional help ... even though I have no resources to do so ( LFS supposedly examines your resources and works out an appropriate fee ... such people are no doubt the same ones which would've sold me on a $150,000 house five years ago ).

That is the legacy of Ablaze: ignoring the needs of the parishoners and re-ordering the service, rather that going through the trouble to create anything truly special.

Pure and simple -- You can't have an effective evangelism program if the parishioners don't know what they are talking about. It reminds me of some kids/young adults in another thread in the LCMS sub forum mentioning that they are going out and confrounting the proponents of the Ablaze program. If the kids aren't equipped they are going to get creamed. A large percentage of parishoners in a congregation don't have a clue how to effectively witness. They have never been equipped in the basis of Lutheranism.

I would say a lot of the contacts made are more about what the church building (congregation) has to offer than about the saving Grace of God. If I wanted all the amenities of a social club I would join one. If I wanted to "feel good" I would join a church that has a lot more experience in that field than a Lutheran church. If I wanted self help homilies in the sermons I would join a counseling group with a psychiatrist leading it.

I'm getting tired of sounding like a broken record, but we need to equip the saints first.

 

[Studeclunker]

<snip> I'm getting tired of sounding like a broken record, but we need to equip the saints first.

Appologetics, Church History, and most importantly: THE WORD! For some reason, we seem to think our teenagers don't need these things. We should be working a lot harder to equip them to face the world and each other and are falling down. The best way to work on Church growth and Evangelism is to train up the next generation in the tools necessary to do so.

Another problem (in all denominations) is that Americans are very willing to send money overseas and evangelize with missionaries, yet won't do so at home. The majority of Americans are un-churched and or non-Christian. That's pathetic for a country as influential as this one is. It's like letting one's own children starve so that they can feed poor children across town. People pay very close attention to what a congregation does, and almost none to what they say.

 

[filosofer]

Since the early-mid 90's, more Christian missionaries have been sent to the US from Africa than the US has sent missionaries throughout the world. The rest of the world sees us as a mission field.

Also, keep in mind that if every Christian in the world witnessed to everyone they came into contact with, 1/2 of the world's population would still be untouched by the Gospel. There is a lot to think about in this statement.

 

[Archaenfel]

However: if I simply witnessed Jesus Christ to those around me, I'd annoy everyone I work with and be written off as a religious nut.

Evangelism in the right context is successful. Going out and simply witnessing to everyone you know is a recipie for disaster.

 

[Lupinus]

Ablaze is one of those things, IMO, that is great in essence but poor in execution and substance. Road paved in good intentions and all that.

The goal of the program is a noble one, and a goal that should be there. If we don't share the word we are failing on a major part of our calling as Christians.

However, I think that Ablaze was poorly planned and is poorly executed. Rather then focusing on the core and preparing them to share the Gospel, much has simply been to make LCMS more appealing. It is a movement without substance.

So Ablaze is a good program at it's core. But one that is executed poorly IMO.

 

[LutherNut]

Looks like "Ablaze" has reached the Wisconsin Synod.

WISCONSIN STATE JOURNAL

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Looks like "Ablaze" has reached the Wisconsin Synod.

WISCONSIN STATE JOURNAL

Uh oh, don't tell Stude...he left the LCMS because of this. I do have to admit though besides the couches, projector screens, and praise band equipment, the stone altar looks super cool.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

I don't like what LCMS is doing. One of them has to be sidestepping its great theological talent in bringing forth an effective program - its pastors. What is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you want the minds that wrestle with Scripture in devotion, prayer, and study guiding the church in evangelism? What better resource does the church have?

They could do it alot cheaper too.

 

[Studeclunker]

Looks like "Ablaze" has reached the Wisconsin Synod.

WISCONSIN STATE JOURNAL

Uh oh, don't tell Stude...he left the LCMS because of this. I do have to admit though besides the couches, projector screens, and praise band equipment, the stone altar looks super cool.

Yes, well... to quote the Peanuts Gang:

AAAAAUUUUUGGGG!!!

Ahem...
One can only hope for a better reaction in the WELS group. LCMS has always had these... wanabe community churches and now they all have the Ablaze movement to wander even further away from the BOC, confessions, and liturgy. I just don't see anything like St. Andrews taking off in WELS.

Then again... the young people and some of the adults do show up at church here in board shorts and birkenstocks. Leaves one to wonder...

 

[Zecryphon]

What happens when the Special "K" club is tossed out? Won't Ablaze! end as well so closely tied to that leadership?

Why 2017? The world is supposed to end 2012, according to my Aztec calendar.

Peace,

Cos

I heard on Hometown Tales that it was the Mayan calendar that expired in 2012. And I'm not convinced that Special K will be tossed out. They chose the year 2017, because it's the 500th year anniversary of Luther's Reformation.