AALC and LCMS main differences?

[RobsBabe]

Hi again

These two synods I guess are in fellowship, and the only difference I could find using a search was open communion for AALC and close communion for LCMS. Is that all? They both embrace the BoC, as far as I could tell.

While I'm at it, the only difference between WELS and ELS is that one is German and one is Norwegian. Is that right?

Thanks!

 

[filosofer]

We do not practice open communion. Technically there is no such thing... But that's another matter.

If you check our (AALC) web site, you will see that our position is called responsible communion, which we believe accords well with 1 Corinthians 11 (as was approved by LCMS):

"We practice “responsible communion,” which is neither open nor closed. That is, according to the Bible we have a responsibility to tell people what we believe (“we receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ with the bread and wine, for the forgiveness of sins&#8221, based on Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 1 Corinthians 11:23-28. The person has the responsibility to check with the Bible to ensure that it does teach that, and that the person agrees with that. Administration is left with the local pastor as part of his pastoral care."​

Doctrinally there are no differences. There are some ethnic differences as well as polity (how we are organized and relationship). We also say that our approach to one another is with an "irenic spirit," which has roots that go back through ALC (1960), ALC (1930), and the former Iowa Synod and Ohio Synod that formed the ALC (1930).

 

[RobsBabe]

I had to look up "irenic"

I looked up the AALC website; okay, responsible communion it is. I read somewhere that if you were baptized you could take communion in the AALC, so that's where I got that.

So actually if I'm looking for a church, I could look for LCMS or AALC, either one. I just hadn't heard of AALC until I got here. I assume the only reason they don't merge is because of the communion difference? I guess I don't have a strong opinion about communion either way, so long as the person is a bona fide Christian. I'd follow the rules of whatever church I joined.

I wouldn't object to WELS or ELS either, except that I'm willing to pray with any Christian or Christian gathering I happen to be with, so I guess that's out. If I quit praying with any of my Christian extended family members, I can imagine what a snob they'd think I was.

 

[filosofer]

I
I assume the only reason they don't merge is because of the communion difference?

No, Communion practice would not prevent merging.

We have absolutely no desire for merging with LCMS. The real issues are the irenic spirit and polity, and both have been issues since the 1870's.

 

[jonathan1971]

I wouldn't object to WELS or ELS either, except that I'm willing to pray with any Christian or Christian gathering I happen to be with, so I guess that's out. If I quit praying with any of my Christian extended family members, I can imagine what a snob they'd think I was.

I've been attending an ELS church for over three years and never once did I hear anything remotely like this. Can you tell me what your source is? My Pastor has never once told me I shouldn't pray with other believers. Infact I've never heard any such thing from any ELS pastor or publication.

 

[porterross]

No, Communion practice would not prevent merging.

We have absolutely no desire for merging with LCMS. The real issues are the irenic spirit and polity, and both have been issues since the 1870's.

I can see that. Is there a resource online that provides a more detailed definition and history of the division?

 

[DaRev]

No, Communion practice would not prevent merging.

We have absolutely no desire for merging with LCMS. The real issues are the irenic spirit and polity, and both have been issues since the 1870's.

I can see that. Is there a resource online that provides a more detailed definition and history of the division?

I, too, would love to read more on this subject.

 

[Tangible]

I found this: Distinctions of The AALC

 

[filosofer]

Probably the most comprehensive is The Formation of the American Lutheran Church by Fred W. Meuser. Columbus, Ohio : Wartburg Press, 1958. xiv, 327 pp. He writes this in reference to the ALC (1930). There is another aspect to this story that is not covered; unfortunately the ones who are most qualified to write it have other writing commitments for the next 15 years.

We are having it reprinted for all our pastors because of its historical insights.

 

[Tangible]

filo, where does the AALC fall with regards to apostolic succession?

 

[filosofer]

Same place as LCMS, WELS, ELS, etc., namely based on the Gospel, not through any kind of indelible character quality or requirement for transmission through any "approved" line.

 

[Tangible]

Same place as LCMS, WELS, ELS, etc., namely based on the Gospel, not through any kind of indelible character quality or requirement for transmission through any "approved" line.

OK, now I know. I think I was confusing the AALC with the ALCC.

 

[LutheranandLonely]

Same place as LCMS, WELS, ELS, etc., namely based on the Gospel, not through any kind of indelible character quality or requirement for transmission through any "approved" line.

Far as I know, the AALC is the only one of these that have a current Altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS. The WELS and ELS have chosen not to Commune with us.

 

[BigNorsk]

I've been attending an ELS church for over three years and never once did I hear anything remotely like this. Can you tell me what your source is? My Pastor has never once told me I shouldn't pray with other believers. Infact I've never heard any such thing from any ELS pastor or publication.

I'm actually not that familiar with the history of ELS in the whole matter. It comes down to unionisn and what is seen as unionism.

LCMS has taken the position that it is different to pray with someone than it would be to have a worship service together. WELS has condemned them for that saying that all types of worship are the same. The WELS position is what has been called the unit concept of church fellowship.

I would assume that officially that ALS agrees with WELS on the matter.

Theses on church fellowship | Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)

Gives a summary of the WELS position.

Aaberg: Essay on Church Fellowship — ELS fellowship

Speaks from the ALS position.

Then of course comes the question of how does one actually do what is said. More than a few have taken the position that even personal prayer with others is not to be done. Others take different positions. A common one would be it's okay for you to pray and for them to basically follow you, but that it's not okay for them to pray and for you to basically follow them. Many others just basically pray with whomever and leave such questions to the clergy.

It's not usual to come up with different answers depending on how one gets to the answer. For instance it wouldn't be unusual to be told it's okay to pray with others but if you asked with whom one is to practice church fellowship with and is prayer church fellowship you'd likely get a different answer.

Marv

 

[jonathan1971]

thanks Marv,

I guess it just depends on the context......;-)

I'll take a look at the link.

Jonathan

 

[RobsBabe]

Oh another new one. Never heard of the ALCC. Why don't they just be Roman Catholic? I can't see any difference.

Anyway, Jonathan~ I didn't mean to imply that WELS or ELS were snobs, just that my family members might find me suddenly snobby if I refused prayer with them. It was somebody in WELS who told me they can't pray with other Christians, NOT EVEN at the dinner table. So I guess it depends on the person or the congregation. I just read in Tangible's link about the Boy Scouts and Chaplaincy. I'd have to look into that before I form an opinion, there.
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I didn't know this:

"In addition, there appears to be a significant level of controversy in the LC-MS. There is, for example, pressure to move the LC-MS toward the ordination of women. There are also some very vocal factions in the LC-MS such as "Jesus First" and "Daystar," the agendas of which are circulated in unofficial publications, just as a more conservative agenda is printed in the unofficial, privately-published, weekly newspaper, Christian News." (From The AALC and Other Lutherans link Tangible provided)

LCMS might ordain women? Really? What is "Jesus First" and "Daystar"?

 

[Tangible]

I don't think the LCMS will ever ordain women, or at least not unless the whole thing goes to the dogs. The fringe elements (especially on the liberal side) in the LCMS have been tolerated and even somewhat encouraged by the present leadership, however it looks like a sea change may be coming soon.

 

[DaRev]

I didn't know this:

"In addition, there appears to be a significant level of controversy in the LC-MS. There is, for example, pressure to move the LC-MS toward the ordination of women. There are also some very vocal factions in the LC-MS such as "Jesus First" and "Daystar," the agendas of which are circulated in unofficial publications, just as a more conservative agenda is printed in the unofficial, privately-published, weekly newspaper, Christian News." (From The AALC and Other Lutherans link Tangible provided)

LCMS might ordain women? Really? What is "Jesus First" and "Daystar"?

The LCMS will never ordain women. It is contrary to Scripture. If that were to happen the synod would disslove. Those groups you mentioned, "Jesus First" and "Daystar" are simply liberal factions and do not represent the teachings or practices of synod. The "Christian News" is an ultra-conservative publication that also does not represent the Lutheran teachings. It's basically a publication from a disgruntled 'pastor' who was denied certification in the synod because of his radical theological views.

 

[RobsBabe]

Glad no ordination of women. So are Jesus First and Daystar kind of like the "Ablaze" I keep hearing about? I don't know what the controversy of Ablaze is, but I know there is one.

I'm not going to worry about the LCMS going to the dogs, then, until and if it does. Guess I'll let the leaders duke it out.

 

[crossnote]

I've been attending an ELS church for over three years and never once did I hear anything remotely like this. Can you tell me what your source is? My Pastor has never once told me I shouldn't pray with other believers. Infact I've never heard any such thing from any ELS pastor or publication.

I have been in a Wels where they did forbid praying with such as LCMS. I have also been in a smaller synod than ELS where even praying with WELS was a no, no. There seems to be a point where the exclusivity factor just becomes a little ridiculous.