A warning in the last days...

Sophia7 said:

Because he also said that we become unjustified by breaking the law. That would make justification contingent on obedience to the law, and that is contrary to Galatians 5.

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Sophia,

There are two angels mediating at the judgment bar of God.

One is mediating through the "deeds of the law."

The other is mediating through the "law of the Spirit of life."

Each has a gospel commission. The gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.

When we yield our bodies and minds to corruption, this is the result of the mediation through the "deeds of the law", which is weaker than the law of sin and death that is in our flesh. There is forgiveness through the other mediator, who is continually saying, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan." Thus the power of the gospel through the blood of Jesus is constantly prevailing.

In this process is fulfilled the witness in Galatians.

Gal 2:17
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. KJV

Sin can only have power over us through the "you shall not" communication that God has ordained unto life, but is found to be unto death. Yet it is a death that we need, to be given life in our resurrected Lord Jesus Christ through his blood, at the judgment bar of God. It is a continual cycle of sin, then death, then resurrection unto life. It is a "daily" cycle, wherein we are "always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that his life may be manifested" to those the Lord gives us to serve, starting at home, then fellow believers and then those who are outside the new Jerusalem.

The "daily" will be "taken away." It must needs be, but woe be to him by whom it comes. Then the man of sin will be revealed.

1 Tim 1:8-9
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, KJV

1 Tim 4:8
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
KJV

Joe

k4c said:

Justification is being made right from a past wrong. Becoming unjustified is something that happens when a person who was once justified breaks God's Law again. The Law never justifies anyone. When we come to Christ for the first time He justifies us through His shed blood. If we sin again we have to come to Him again to be cleansed again. At no point does the Law have the power to make a past wrong right only the blood of Christ has that power. To say that justification is contingent on keeping the Law would be like saying we are made right from a past wrong when we keep the Law, which is false.

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Galatians 5 says that we are not under the law. We can't become unjustified by breaking a law that we are not under.

k4c said:

I think people get to a point in life where they refuse to hear because they don't want to make anymore changes in their lives. I have a friend who once said he was too old to make changes to his faith.

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If your assumptions were true of me, I wouldn't have left the Adventist Church.

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. KJV

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.KJV

Jesus our Lord was made under the law of sin and death in Gethsemane through Calvary, that he might redeem us who are under the law of sin and death. He redeems us through the law of the Spirit of life that is in his blood that was shed and that speaks better things to us than Abel's blood. Jesus' blood speaks from the new Jerusalem that is above. When the new Jerusalem comes down to us through the Spirit, it will not be dealing with our sins.

Joe

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Sophia7 said:

Because he also said that we become unjustified by breaking the law. That would make justification contingent on obedience to the law, and that is contrary to Galatians 5.

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You mean, once saved, always saved? I hope that is not your position.

Unjustification is contingent on breaking the law. But justification is not contingent on keeping the law. There's a difference.

Any reason why you cannot or will not respond to my post #13?

Laodicean said:

You mean, once saved, always saved? I hope that is not your position.

Unjustification is contingent on breaking the law. But justification is not contingent on keeping the law. There's a difference.

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My response to k4c is also my response to you: Galatians 5 says that we are not under the law. We can't become unjustified by breaking a law that we are not under.

Laodicean said:

Any reason why you cannot or will not respond to my post #13?

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I have addressed that many times, and I can't spend a lot of time posting right now, but I'll look up what I've posted on it previously.

Laodicean said:

Good points, k4c, but probably wasted here, for the most part. I have yet to hear the opposers of your views answer the above.

Come on, folks, you who disagree with k4c, I challenge you to answer him.

Is it okay to commit adultery? Yes or no?

Is it okay to dishonor your parents? Yes or no?

Is it okay to lie? To steal? To kill? To covet? Yes or no?

Is it okay to worship other gods? Yes or no?

Okay to take God's Name in vain? Yes or no?

I'm betting you would say it is not okay to do any of the above. But when that one commandment, also written with the finger of God, is brought up, the one that says to remember creation and the Creator, suddenly, there is resistance, resentment, and outright rebellion. There is a call to throw out all the other commandments in order to get rid of that one offending commandment.

So what I want to know is: Why the silence when k4c asks these specific questions?

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Laodicean, the following paragraphs are from a response that I wrote to my sister several months ago when she asked similar questions. I don't expect you to agree, but I hope this helps you to understand my perspective. I don't have a lot of time right now, and frankly I'm a bit tired of discussing this subject, so I can't promise a speedy reply to further comments.

I do not believe that we are required to keep any of the ten commandments on the basis of their inclusion in the Decalogue. Adventist doctrine imposes a false categorization of the law—the ten commandments plus dietary and tithing laws vs. "ceremonial" laws—which is without biblical support. That doesn’t mean that we have no moral direction and standards of right and wrong and that we thus have a license to go out and lead sinful lives. However, the foundation of righteousness and morality is not the law. Romans 2 says that even Gentiles, who didn't have the law, had consciences to convict them of right and wrong. Sometimes they even did things that the law prescribed even though they didn't have the law. The law was only a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ (Gal. 3:24-25), and we don't need the law to discern right from wrong when we have the Spirit living in us (Gal. 5).

Adventism teaches that the two greatest commandments that Jesus referenced—to love God and to love our neighbors—are a summary of the ten. I see it from another perspective, which is that the ten commandments were specific applications of those transcendent principles of love for God and love for each other upon which all the law (the whole law, not just the ten commandments) and the prophets hang. Those specific applications are not eternal just by virtue of their being engraved on the tablets of stone. In fact, 2 Corinthians 3 calls the ten commandments "the ministry of death," which are replaced by the more glorious "ministry of the Spirit":

1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?
2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.​

We are not without commandments in the New Testament, but they are not given on the basis of whether they are part of the ten. For example, adultery, murder, and idolatry are all described as sins in the New Testament, but so are many other things that are not part of the ten. Jesus told us not to commit adultery and murder, not even in our hearts. He also told us to love our enemies and pray for our persecutors, to turn the other cheek, not to worry, not to judge others—all things that are not addressed by the ten commandments. The New Testament includes moral principles and even specific behavioral instructions. Some of these coincide with some of the ten commandments, while some don't. Notice that in this portion of Galatians 5, several specific sins are listed as "deeds of the flesh," but many of them are not included in the ten commandments:


We live by the Spirit, not by the law, and we fulfill the law when we love each other, according to this passage as well as Romans 13. Love is our standard of morality, not the ten commandments. And the fruit that the Spirit produces in us does not include obedience to the ten commandments.

Laodicean said:

Good points, k4c, but probably wasted here, for the most part. I have yet to hear the opposers of your views answer the above.

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Although not in this thread, I have answered this many times. It is the Spirit who convicts regarding sin and righteousness and judgment. If He convicts me that it is a sin to kill, then He will also equip me to avoid killing. If He convicts me that--based on a specific set of circumstances--I need to kill, then He will equip me to kill.

This is the point that both you and K4C seem to miss (at least based on previous discussions). Our conviction comes from the Spirit, not that which has been fulfilled.

BFA

k4c said:

The Spirit also brings back to rememberance the word of God in order to convict of sin properly.

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Is the Spirit in some way subservient to the Bible? For example, must the Spirit convict men according to that which you believe is written in the old covenant? May He ever deviate from your interpretation? Also, must the Spirit rely on your understanding of the Bible in order to provide conviction or is He capable of convicting without your understanding of the Bible?

I know a Christain girl who was having a sexual relastionship with her boyfriend. She didn't think anything was wrong because she loved him until I point out the fact that God's word says it's a sin.

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So, using this example, which entity uscerped the role of the Holy Spirit -- you or the Bible?

Take away the standard and we're left to private intepretation of what godly love and righteous is.

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You've provided us with a number of red herrings. In many of the examples you cited, men sincerely believed they were following "the standard" and yet made incorrect choices. It seems that -- even while claiming to rely on "the standard" -- they were still able to create a private interpretation of what godly love is.

At the end of the day, I'm left wondering whether we really believe that the Spirit is capable of doing what Jesus indicated the Spirit would do. You seem to be unsure.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 said:

Although not in this thread, I have answered this many times. It is the Spirit who convicts regarding sin and righteousness and judgment. If He convicts me that it is a sin to kill, then He will also equip me to avoid killing. If He convicts me that--based on a specific set of circumstances--I need to kill, then He will equip me to kill.

This is the point that both you and K4C seem to miss (at least based on previous discussions). Our conviction comes from the Spirit, not that which has been fulfilled.

BFA

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BFA,

The representative of our Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped.

1 Cor 14:32
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. KJV

1 Cor 14:37
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. KJV

Rev 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. KJV

All of the Scripture is a prophecy of the Lord Jesus and the Body that the Father has chosen for him, from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22.

Heb 10:5-7
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. KJV

1 Peter 1:7-12
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. KJV

Joe

Actually, Hebrews 8 says the old covenant is done away with.

Joe67 said:

The representative of our Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped.

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Is the Spirit God, or merely a representative of God?

BFA

Byfaithalone1 said:

Is the Spirit God, or merely a representative of God?

BFA

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BFA,

Heb 1:6-7
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. KJV

Joe

Joe67 said:

BFA,

Heb 1:6-7
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. KJV

Joe

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Relevance?

BFA

Byfaithalone1 said:

Relevance?

BFA

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Isa 29:11
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: KJV

Joe