A View On Homosexuality...

seebs said:

The theory is that some feelings or desires can be shown to be not compatible with God's will.

For instance, we generally assume that, no matter how strongly I feel I am attracted to some woman other than my wife, in fact, I am called to not act on such desires.

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Yes, but in a situation like that you yourself would feel it was wrong. Whether it was because society frowns on cheating on your spouse or because you believe it goes against God's will. You get the message first, then choose whether to act on it or not. Do homosexual christians all get the message?

Well, the thing is, people don't always feel it's wrong. We just assert that it is anyway... Which is, I'd admit, not very much being "called".

Huh. Well I guess some things will just remain a mystery to me! lol!

Thanks seebs!

Originally posted by : jazzbird

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I don't think anyone is proposing that we slaughter any homosexuals. Some Christians are very judgemental and condemning of homosexuals, but there are many, like me, who are concerned about this issue simply because it is an issue of the soul. I am concerned for the eternal well being of my gay friends' souls. As an atheist, you may find that absurd, but in truth, it is a very real and vital issue.

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Actually several conservative Christian leaders and are supportive of the murder of gays and lesbians. Paul Cameron, the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) advocates that homosexuals be arrested, branded (as in hot metal pressed into the face) , physically mutilated and then executed for “crimes against nature”

Volos said:

Actually several conservative Christian leaders and are supportive of the murder of gays and lesbians. Paul Cameron, the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) advocates that homosexuals be arrested, branded (as in hot metal pressed into the face) , physically mutilated and then executed for “crimes against nature”

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Could you back that assertation up with some proof, please?

Volos said:

Actually several conservative Christian leaders and are supportive of the murder of gays and lesbians. Paul Cameron, the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) advocates that homosexuals be arrested, branded (as in hot metal pressed into the face) , physically mutilated and then executed for “crimes against nature”

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Sounds like a nut case to me totally misusing the message of Jesus...the minute love is not right in the middle of our actions, we are doomed...doomed I tell you !!

David

Beleg_Strongbow said:

I never understood this. You mean all the OT laws are completely moot now? Well, why not just completely get rid of Leviticus then? And aren't the 10 commandments (which are actually a lot more than 10) in the OT as well? So which is it, do we follow those laws, or not? And if not, why did God lay down laws that aren't expected to be followed. Did he change his mind?

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I'm sorry. I shouldn't throw things like that out there so flippantly in a forum with such mixed company. The short answer is that some of the OT laws were specifically for the nation of Israel and therefore they don't apply to the church anyway. Some were overruled by the NT and some still stand, such as the ten commandments, as well as other things. There are only ten 10 commandments, by the way.

God didn't change his mind about anything. The OT and NT show God's continually unfolding plan for humanity. The OT was written before Christ came and the NT is the new covenant (promise) that was established by Christ. Before Christ, the Jews lived under the Law. Christ came to free us from that and to offer us all salvation by grace. We are still expected to live in the way that God commanded, but it has a lot less to do with fulfilling a long list of laws, and moreto do with doing everything out of your love for God and others. If people truly love in the way that God designed, all other things flow out of that.

For instance, Paul says:

Galatians 5:14
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

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Jesus said:

Matthew 22:35-40
One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

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Basically, if we are loving in this manner, our heart is right and we will do what is right. It's a pretty complex topic, but that is a basic snapshot - I hope it's not too insufficient.

...the minute love is not right in the middle of our actions, we are doomed...doomed I tell you !!

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And homosexuality is about love. What is all that wrong with two people loving each other? The world could always use more love. Don't you think there's more constructive uses of your time than getting all upset about two people having a loving relationship that doesn't even affect you? Trying to stop this does not sound like love is in the middle of your actions.

And as for the OT laws, how do we know which ones to follow? What determines this? If God wanted people to behave a certain way, why not lay down the law for all of humanity during Adam's lifetime and not change his mind from there? A lot of the passages from the OP were from the OT. And yes, there are a lot more than 10 commandments, try reading Exodus straight through.

Beleg_Strongbow said:

And homosexuality is about love. What is all that wrong with two people loving each other? The world could always use more love. Don't you think there's more constructive uses of your time than getting all upset about two people having a loving relationship that doesn't even affect you? Trying to stop this does not sound like love is in the middle of your actions.

And as for the OT laws, how do we know which ones to follow? What determines this? If God wanted people to behave a certain way, why not lay down the law for all of humanity during Adam's lifetime and not change his mind from there? A lot of the passages from the OP were from the OT. And yes, there are a lot more than 10 commandments, try reading Exodus straight through.

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There are many laws in the OT, but there are only ten commandments - the laws written on stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. I tried to explain what determines how we live - if there are more specific questions about what I wrote previously, let me know. If you're willing to read this Bible, try Romans. It explains a lot about the Law and Grace and how Christians are to live. We should be thankful that God didn't leave us with the Law.

People mistake the Love we are to have. It is not a wishy-washy emotional and irrational love. It is a love based on the Truths of the Bible. The reason that I don't believe homosexuality is right is because that's what God says. Therefore, it is only out of love that I take a stand for what I believe with my homosexual friends - because it is about more than the fleeting earthly love of this world. I am concerned for their soul. If I didn't believe this, then hey, I'd say do what you want as long as you're not hurting me, but that's not all there is to life. I want people to come to know the true, unchanging, everlasting love that comes from God. I try to show that in the best way I can, though I am an innadequate and imperfect person.

flicka said:

What I don't understand is how a homosexual christian who does meet someone and fall in love can be told that they must deny themselvs something and live by a standard they personally do not feel 'called' to do.

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This is a very difficult question to answer with just a blanket statement because of the varying degrees of opinions on the matter. If someone were to ask me the Catholic position on homosexuality, I have an answer. If you ask me about a certain individual who is Christian but does not personally feel that leading an actively gay lifestyle is sinful if done in monogamy or whatever, then all I can do is disagree with that. I will not say that the person isn't Christian, but I will say that I don't agree and probably leave it at that. I would take care not to ostrasize the person by continually throwing Bible verses in their face at the risk of making their feelings of condemnation worse.

Failing that, there wouldn't be much more that I could say. I am generally very hesitant to engage in homosexuality discussions simply because I know how sensitive an issue this is for many people.

Michelle

Volos said:

Actually several conservative Christian leaders and are supportive of the murder of gays and lesbians. Paul Cameron, the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) advocates that homosexuals be arrested, branded (as in hot metal pressed into the face) , physically mutilated and then executed for “crimes against nature”

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That is simply not true..you really need to stop slandering that man

There are many laws in the OT, but there are only ten commandments - the laws written on stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. I tried to explain what determines how we live - if there are more specific questions about what I wrote previously, let me know. If you're willing to read this Bible, try Romans. It explains a lot about the Law and Grace and how Christians are to live. We should be thankful that God didn't leave us with the Law.

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I have Exodus open in front of me now. God begins to lay out the law to the people, but he only gets through the first ten points before the people get scared of God and tell Moses to speak to God himself, but not let God speak directly to them. God then continues where he left off, telling Moses many more laws (including condoning slavery, and ordering the death of anyone who curses their parents). There is nothing to indicate that the first ten laws are more important than the others.

You have still done nothing to tell me which OT laws are to be followed, and how we can determine them, and why God changed his mind on some of the laws. Please address this in your next post.

If I didn't believe this, then hey, I'd say do what you want as long as you're not hurting me, but that's not all there is to life. I want people to come to know the true, unchanging, everlasting love that comes from God. I try to show that in the best way I can, though I am an innadequate and imperfect person.

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I'm sure preventing them from getting married will make homosexuals have a positive view on Christianity and want to join you.

Beleg_Strongbow said:

I have Exodus open in front of me now. God begins to lay out the law to the people, but he only gets through the first ten points before the people get scared of God and tell Moses to speak to God himself, but not let God speak directly to them. God then continues where he left off, telling Moses many more laws (including condoning slavery, and ordering the death of anyone who curses their parents). There is nothing to indicate that the first ten laws are more important than the others.

You have still done nothing to tell me which OT laws are to be followed, and how we can determine them, and why God changed his mind on some of the laws. Please address this in your next post.

I'm sure preventing them from getting married will make homosexuals have a positive view on Christianity and want to join you.

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I'm sorry that I'm not doing a better job answering your questions. I don't claim to be an OT scholar, but I'll do my best. God did not change His mind - I addressed this in my last post. The Bible is a continual revelation. Maybe the best way to say it is that when you have a baby, you don't feed it a big chunk of meat, right? You start with milk and move to soft foods, etc. Well, it's sorta the same thing with God. In the OT He gave the Law as a way to guide Israel. As time went on and God revealed more and more of His plan and eventually sent Jesus to atone for our sins, we were given more "grown up food" to live on. As one becomes more mature, they are governed less and less by specific rules, because they have the maturity to be discerning and to make the right decisions. I don't know if that makes any sense.

As I said, there are many OT laws, but the laws which are referred to as the ten commandments and are described in Exodus 34 are one part of that. There were ten which were written on the stones. I'm not sure if you are reading the right part - there are a lot of commands that God gives in Exodus.

Some of the laws are no longer followed because Israel was a theocracy and we are not. So, we don't for instance, stone people even though that was part of the law under their theocracy. There are also ceremonial laws in the OT that we don't follow, such as the sacrificial laws, dietary laws, instructions for building the ark of the covenant etc. You see a lot of those in Leviticus and Exodus. Many laws were given specifically to govern Israel.

Some laws are universal moral laws that we all (or most of us) follow, such as we don't murder, we don't cheat others. etc. We would agree that these laws are common sense and are important for a healthy society. The Ten Commandments would fall under the category of moral law. The Ten Commandments are still important to the Church and were not just for Israel.

I'm sorry that I can't give you a list of do's and don'ts. Depending on their theological perspective, scholars argue differently about what laws we are under. It's not a cut and dry thing. Law and Grace are two different ways that God relates to us. The Law is the old way, but it doesn't mean it's completely invalid.

Ideally, a Christian who is following Christ perfectly should not need a legal code. His heart should be so filled with love, and his mind should be so in tune with God that he would do the right thing naturally. This is always the Christian ideal. However because we remain imperfect in this life, most Christians would say that law has a role to play, even if it isn't precisely the same as it was for the Jews. 20th Century experience has convinced most Christians that some objective standards are needed to guide behavior. It is too easy to be led into dangerous actions by short-term considerations and emotions.

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http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/law.html

Perhaps if you have questions that I am not able to answer sufficiently you could start a new thread pertaining to the law, and you may get responses from people who are more well versed than I.

Voles stated: Actually several conservative Christian leaders and are supportive of the murder of gays and lesbians. Paul Cameron, the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) advocates that homosexuals be arrested, branded (as in hot metal pressed into the face) , physically mutilated and then executed for “crimes against nature”

sweetkitty said:

That is simply not true..you really need to stop slandering that man

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Exterminate gays

"At the 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference, Cameron announced to the attendees, 'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.' According to an interview with former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, Cameron was recommending the extermination option as early as 1983." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.

Tattoo AIDS patients, castrate gays

"At least twice Cameron has advocated the tattooing of AIDS patients on the face, so that people would know when they were meeting with an infected person. The penalty for trying to hide the tattoo would be banishment to the Hawaiian island of Molokai, a former leper colony. In the event that a vaccine were developed to prevent AIDS, Cameron has proposed that homosexuals be castrated to prevent them from 'cheating' on nature." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.

Beleg_Strongbow said:

You have still done nothing to tell me which OT laws are to be followed, and how we can determine them, and why God changed his mind on some of the laws. Please address this in your next post.



I'm sure preventing them from getting married will make homosexuals have a positive view on Christianity and want to join you.

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Which ones are you in confusion over? I sugguest reading romans and 1 tim along with the gospels.

GMRELIC said:

Exterminate gays

"At the 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference, Cameron announced to the attendees, 'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.' According to an interview with former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, Cameron was recommending the extermination option as early as 1983." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.

Tattoo AIDS patients, castrate gays

"At least twice Cameron has advocated the tattooing of AIDS patients on the face, so that people would know when they were meeting with an infected person. The penalty for trying to hide the tattoo would be banishment to the Hawaiian island of Molokai, a former leper colony. In the event that a vaccine were developed to prevent AIDS, Cameron has proposed that homosexuals be castrated to prevent them from 'cheating' on nature." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.

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Wow, who is this Cameron? Does he profess to be a Christian? - I hope not.

jazzbird said:

Wow, who is this Cameron? Does he profess to be a Christian? - I hope not.

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Paul Cameron, is the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) his finding have been found to be grossly false and unwarrented, yes he does claim to be a Christian

Miss Shelby said:

I am generally very hesitant to engage in homosexuality discussions simply because I know how sensitive an issue this is for many people.

Michelle

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Thanks for trying to answer my question. I understand your hesitancy becauce I feel the same way about the abortion debate...generally only jumping in to point out false assumptions or illogical conclusions. I think I'm going to do the same thing with the subject of homosexuality. I know where I stand but I'll leave the hardcore debating to other people.

GMRELIC said:

Paul Cameron, is the founder of the Family Research Council (a subsidiary of Focus on the Family) his finding have been found to be grossly false and unwarrented, yes he does claim to be a Christian

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Can you be more specific regarding your references? "News-Telegraph"'s are in the thousands. Would like to read up on it myself.

Belleg_Strongbow;

Regarding the OT debate, the OP was very clear as to the context in which to use the OT. Did you read the entire post?

And, for argument's sake, go ahead and discount the entire OT. What about the OP's points in the NT?