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A very real concern about modern Pentecostalism

Apr 2, 2007
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Hey folks, before I address my concern I want to assure you that I grew up in a Pentecostal church and currently attend a primarily Pentecostal church (IPHC). I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit (with evidence of speaking on tongues) some time ago so please do not think that what I'm about to say is some sort of attack on Pentecostalism from outside of the denomination. I am merely a very concerned Pentecostal who has been a personal witness and, to some degree am guilty myself of participating in, some things in various Pentecostal circles that I feel must be adressed.

I don't know other way to adress this issue but be frank about it. Throughout all of my years of attending and visiting various Pentecostal churches as well as watching and / or listening to various Pentecostal preachers on TV, radio or the internet, it has becomer clear to me that we, as a denomination(s) over the last several decades, have become just as corrupt and self seeking as the sinful world around us.


Our churches are become little more than Pentecostal "safe zones", a place where we go not to help the world but to hide from it. A place where we can go to be with like minded people to shoot a game of basketball, take a knitting or self defense class, keep our children preoccupied with various clean and safe activities, or to have a meal or watch a dvd in fellowship. All the while there are people in our communities are starving, homeless or scuicidal.

Our services yield very little real fruit. Sure a few of us may pray in tongues while another attempts to interpret, some may feel inclined to share a very vague prophetic word with little regard to past accuracy. Others may fall flat on their backs while others may feel inclined to laugh or shout or wail. Not to mention the fact that Revival has become nothing more than a denominational pep rally which last over the course of a few evenings.

All the while our pews are filled with people eagerly anticipating the sunday afternoon sporting event or the buffet at a favorite local resturaunt. Our kids are hunkered down listeing to their ipods, playing video games on a hand held or texting on their phone while busybodies go about their ussual business of spreading the latest gossip or judging what others are wearing or whining about today's sermon.

Our alters are filled with people struggling with various forms of sickness and bondage, everything from cancer to high blood pressure to depression to anxiety to pornography to homosexuality. Our divorce rate is every bit as high, if not higher, than marrages out side of the church. Our children are having sex and getting pregnant at the same rate as those outside of the church. And our people are struggling financially just as those outside of the church.

So my concern is... IF WE ARE STRULY FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN WHY ARE WE NO DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD?

Lately I've been doing some research on some of the greatest men and women of God throughout church history. People who God used to not only spark genuine revival but also had a great impact on their country as well as the world. People like John Wesley, George Whitefield, William & Catherine Booth, Charles Finney, E.M. Bounds, Pheobee Palmer, Evan Roberts. All of whom God used in a mighty way and all of whom also believed in a second work of grace in the life of a believer, an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Although it should be noted that not one on record had ever spoken in an unknown tongue.

What's my point? All of these great men and women of God believed that the primary manifestation of the indwelling Holy Spirit was a deep sense of affection and sanctification for and from God. Something that the vast majority of Pentecostals today have obviously lost sight of.

Want proof? How about the falls of Jim & Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggard & Todd Bentley. How about the self seeking prosperity gospel that is being preached all over christian television: "Sow a seed, reap a 100 fold harvest! Need a new car? How about a new home? Send me your money! It's guarenteed!" As if God is going to reward us for sowing a seed out of our own wordly desires and greed.

Over all, the modern Pentecostal movement (in the civilized world) has become evey bit as cold, complacent and useless as Cessationist Antinomians! (those who not only believe that the gifts have ceased but also they can sin all they like and still be saved). Over the last few decades we have become so centered on the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we have forgotten about the He who has given us the Spirit in the first place! We've become so obsessed with FREEDOM that we have forgotten true liberty resides in the death of our own sense of self!

My beloved brothers and sisters in Christ, while we Pentecostals have become the most sucessful protestant denomination since the reformation, I fear that we also have the potential to become the most destructive. If we are truly going to impact the world for Christ then we desperately need what Wesley, Finney and Booth had.

I encourage you to earnestly pray and seek God concerning sanctification regardless of what you have been taught or heard. Sure many hold to the idea that sanctification is ongoing process and this is true but what if a certain degree of spiritual maturity can be achieved in this life as so many in our spiritual heritage previously believed? Please take into consideration what God has accomplished through them as evidence that there might just be something to this!

Or, you can listen to the alternative. Men like John Calvin who preached one thing yet religious pride and murder ruled his actions!

YOU DECIDE...
 
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Not all Pentecostal churches are like the ones you mention. Not all Pentecostal pastors are like the TV Evangelists.

Very true however, don't be fooled, this is how the world perceives Pentecostalism.
 
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Rose_bud

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I understand the jist of your post.. but Id like to encourage you with this.. God doesn’t take a back seat when it comes to His people… when we look beyond what we see with the naked eye, we can be assured, his promises are still true…
There are still those Pentecostals that pray through the night at the church building, fellowshipping and breaking bread, patiently awaiting the direction of His Spirit… and even if He comes without the goose-bumps, or the wailing, or the falling over… we just somehow assured that He is always there…
 
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I understand the jist of your post.. but Id like to encourage you with this.. God doesn’t take a back seat when it comes to His people… when we look beyond what we see with the naked eye, we can be assured, his promises are still true…
There are still those Pentecostals that pray through the night at the church building, fellowshipping and breaking bread, patiently awaiting the direction of His Spirit… and even if He comes without the goose-bumps, or the wailing, or the falling over… we just somehow assured that He is always there…

Bless you! :)
 
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lilmissmontana

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Thank you Rosebud :) I entirely agree ... the Lord knows what He's doing.

I'd like to add a few things.

SentinalNation, as you wish we wouldn't be offended ... I hope you are not offended with what I have to say.

One of the things that boggles my mind is how many times ones come here saying they are Pentecostal but carrying another denominational icon and that we should listen to them just because they say so. Jesus says follow Him ... not everyone who comes here saying they're this or that. We don't know you from Adam ... what we have to gage on is discernment of the Spirit and fruit of the Spirit. Discernment tells me this thread is a bad idea ... time will prove the fruit. My idea of fruit is spreading the message of Christ ... plowing someone else's field usually doesn't provide much fruit ... just an observation ... this kind of thread also spreads division. imo ... this denom over that denom ... we are ALL the body of Christ

Please don't speak about or for Pentecostals in this forum unless you are ready to wear the icon. It's actually a rule ... I'm not here to report ... I'm just weary of people making posts like this.

Sir, it might surprise you ... or not ... to know many feel that way about all denonminations. On any given day here at cf one denomination is bashing another ... and it's not much better in the world. The church as a whole is less than satisfactory. And if I'm not mistaken, the Bible tells us that will happen.

Did it occur to you that there are many who will read your post who are observers ... but not members of cf ... we'll never know how they feel. It disturbs me a great deal that you would come here and speak negatively ... again, intended or not. It serves no purpose other than to have a "one-up" ... again, intended or not. One of those observers might be considering going to our church ... or yours ... and decide from your post not to go to either ... or none ... because the world is weary of battle in the churches ... they're ready for the Word ... maybe all should focus on the Word and not what's 'wrong' with each other ... judgement is the Lord's ... I for one am more worried if I measure up than if the church does ... the church comes second for me ... the church can't save your soul ... I'd rather be right with the Lord than with the church. The simple truth is there is error in every church.

Much of the five years I've been a member here has been about the mass amounts of people coming here to teach us what "we don't know or what we do wrong." I'm just not "down with that" anymore. You can't justify your stand and I can't justify mine. Only the Lord can justify us. So why should we even go there ... not to mention why would we ... I'm not going to try to 'justify' my denomination to you or any one else.

It's my perception the Lord will have a great number of problems with most of the church ... not just the Pentecostals ... I believe if we look at Revelation and John's message to the churches that will back up that ...

on that note ... I work on my corner of the world and how I can better serve the Lord through my denomination. Your denomination, sir, says Nazarene ... I can only assume your corner of the world "Nazarene" could use a little help, itself. Along with every other denomination who has come here to "report" on the Pentecostal denomination.

The Lord will use who He will, how He will, when He will, in spite of all the "great and wonderful" things we or our "denomination" do for the world.

It doesn't start with the denomination ... it starts with the heart ... and there's a severe lack of heart in most All the denominations on one level or another ... starting with judgement of others. I can't imagine going to the Nazarene (is there one at cf ... I actually don't know) and telling them what's wrong with their church ... I'm reminded ... take the plank out of my own eye.

... as far as the Pentecostal denomination ... we're no more than any other ................... and we're MOST CERTAINLY not less.

A great many of us have put a great deal into this forum to be a representation of the love and Truth of Christ ... it's sad to see that constantly undermined by well-meaning and sometimes not so well-meaning people.

I'm sorry ... in this forum just saying you are Pentecostal but wear a different icon or used to be Pentecostal doesn't cut it. Either you are or you aren't ... just the way it is with all the other denominations ... you are or you aren't ...

you include yourself in the problems of the Pentecostal church by using "our" Sir you are not Pentecostal in my book until you own it. And saying you are but not wearing the icon comes across to me as a way in the back door.



God bless and thank you for your effort ...
 
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Thank you Rosebud :) I entirely agree ... the Lord knows what He's doing.

I'd like to add a few things.

SentinalNation, as you wish we wouldn't be offended ... I hope you are not offended with what I have to say.

One of the things that boggles my mind is how many times ones come here saying they are Pentecostal but carrying another denominational icon and that we should listen to them just because they say so. Jesus says follow Him ... not everyone who comes here saying they're this or that. We don't know you from Adam ... what we have to gage on is discernment of the Spirit and fruit of the Spirit. Discernment tells me this thread is a bad idea ... time will prove the fruit. My idea of fruit is spreading the message of Christ ... plowing someone else's field usually doesn't provide much fruit ... just an observation ... this kind of thread also spreads division. imo ... this denom over that denom ... we are ALL the body of Christ

Please don't speak about or for Pentecostals in this forum unless you are ready to wear the icon. It's actually a rule ... I'm not here to report ... I'm just weary of people making posts like this.

Sir, it might surprise you ... or not ... to know many feel that way about all denonminations. On any given day here at cf one denomination is bashing another ... and it's not much better in the world. The church as a whole is less than satisfactory. And if I'm not mistaken, the Bible tells us that will happen.

Did it occur to you that there are many who will read your post who are observers ... but not members of cf ... we'll never know how they feel. It disturbs me a great deal that you would come here and speak negatively ... again, intended or not. It serves no purpose other than to have a "one-up" ... again, intended or not. One of those observers might be considering going to our church ... or yours ... and decide from your post not to go to either ... or none ... because the world is weary of battle in the churches ... they're ready for the Word ... maybe all should focus on the Word and not what's 'wrong' with each other ... judgement is the Lord's ... I for one am more worried if I measure up than if the church does ... the church comes second for me ... the church can't save your soul ... I'd rather be right with the Lord than with the church. The simple truth is there is error in every church.

Much of the five years I've been a member here has been about the mass amounts of people coming here to teach us what "we don't know or what we do wrong." I'm just not "down with that" anymore. You can't justify your stand and I can't justify mine. Only the Lord can justify us. So why should we even go there ... not to mention why would we ... I'm not going to try to 'justify' my denomination to you or any one else.

It's my perception the Lord will have a great number of problems with most of the church ... not just the Pentecostals ... I believe if we look at Revelation and John's message to the churches that will back up that ...

on that note ... I work on my corner of the world and how I can better serve the Lord through my denomination. Your denomination, sir, says Nazarene ... I can only assume your corner of the world "Nazarene" could use a little help, itself. Along with every other denomination who has come here to "report" on the Pentecostal denomination.

The Lord will use who He will, how He will, when He will, in spite of all the "great and wonderful" things we or our "denomination" do for the world.

It doesn't start with the denomination ... it starts with the heart ... and there's a severe lack of heart in most All the denominations on one level or another ... starting with judgement of others. I can't imagine going to the Nazarene (is there one at cf ... I actually don't know) and telling them what's wrong with their church ... I'm reminded ... take the plank out of my own eye.

... as far as the Pentecostal denomination ... we're no more than any other ................... and we're MOST CERTAINLY not less.

A great many of us have put a great deal into this forum to be a representation of the love and Truth of Christ ... it's sad to see that constantly undermined by well-meaning and sometimes not so well-meaning people.

I'm sorry ... in this forum just saying you are Pentecostal but wear a different icon or used to be Pentecostal doesn't cut it. Either you are or you aren't ... just the way it is with all the other denominations ... you are or you aren't ...

you include yourself in the problems of the Pentecostal church by using "our" Sir you are not Pentecostal in my book until you own it. And saying you are but not wearing the icon comes across to me as a way in the back door.



God bless and thank you for your effort ...


For years I wore the icon HOWEVER, I recently changed that icon to reflect what I now believe... that sanctification is every bit as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit (and just as important) as speaking in tongues or prophecy. Please understand that the "Nazarene" icon reflects my beliefs as that I am a "Pentecostal - Holiness" (IPHC - International Pentecostal - Holiness Church). The Holiness faith being the denomination in which the Pentecostal Faith was born. I appologize for any confussion. I should have realized that most Pentecostals probably do not understand the history of Pentecostalism or the various organizations found within.

Also I did compare what I felt is going on in Pentecostal churches to what's going on in other churches, by saying that we are becoming no better than Cessationist Antonomians, I had hoped that the explaination included in parathesis would have cleared that up.

Anyways, please do not not a sense of denominational pride derail the message that is being conveyed. A message which which states just because we believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not necessarily mean that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Our actions (fruit) speaks more clearly than our words.
 
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Builder_Bob

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For years I wore the icon HOWEVER, I recently changed that icon to reflect what I now believe... that sanctification is every bit as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit (and just as important) as speaking in tongues or prophecy. Please understand that the "Nazarene" icon reflects my beliefs as that I am a "Pentecostal - Holiness" (IPHC - International Pentecostal - Holiness Church). The Holiness faith being the denomination in which the Pentecostal Faith was born. I appologize for any confussion. I should have realized that most Pentecostals probably do not understand the history of Pentecostalism or the various organizations found within.


Is it not written (Glory not that spirits are subject unto you). The heart of the holyness churches were snake handling? Glory not that which you you been given over other doctrines, for isn't it the same Idle worship as the scripture I just quoted to you in likeness?

Littlemiss is right, we need to concentrate on our own faults and cracks in our own foundation not denominational problems for that focus won't prepare you for what's ahead.
 
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Thank you Rosebud :) I entirely agree ... the Lord knows what He's doing.

I'd like to add a few things.

SentinalNation, as you wish we wouldn't be offended ... I hope you are not offended with what I have to say.

One of the things that boggles my mind is how many times ones come here saying they are Pentecostal but carrying another denominational icon and that we should listen to them just because they say so. Jesus says follow Him ... not everyone who comes here saying they're this or that. We don't know you from Adam ... what we have to gage on is discernment of the Spirit and fruit of the Spirit. Discernment tells me this thread is a bad idea ... time will prove the fruit. My idea of fruit is spreading the message of Christ ... plowing someone else's field usually doesn't provide much fruit ... just an observation ... this kind of thread also spreads division. imo ... this denom over that denom ... we are ALL the body of Christ

Please don't speak about or for Pentecostals in this forum unless you are ready to wear the icon. It's actually a rule ... I'm not here to report ... I'm just weary of people making posts like this.

Sir, it might surprise you ... or not ... to know many feel that way about all denonminations. On any given day here at cf one denomination is bashing another ... and it's not much better in the world. The church as a whole is less than satisfactory. And if I'm not mistaken, the Bible tells us that will happen.

Did it occur to you that there are many who will read your post who are observers ... but not members of cf ... we'll never know how they feel. It disturbs me a great deal that you would come here and speak negatively ... again, intended or not. It serves no purpose other than to have a "one-up" ... again, intended or not. One of those observers might be considering going to our church ... or yours ... and decide from your post not to go to either ... or none ... because the world is weary of battle in the churches ... they're ready for the Word ... maybe all should focus on the Word and not what's 'wrong' with each other ... judgement is the Lord's ... I for one am more worried if I measure up than if the church does ... the church comes second for me ... the church can't save your soul ... I'd rather be right with the Lord than with the church. The simple truth is there is error in every church.

Much of the five years I've been a member here has been about the mass amounts of people coming here to teach us what "we don't know or what we do wrong." I'm just not "down with that" anymore. You can't justify your stand and I can't justify mine. Only the Lord can justify us. So why should we even go there ... not to mention why would we ... I'm not going to try to 'justify' my denomination to you or any one else.

It's my perception the Lord will have a great number of problems with most of the church ... not just the Pentecostals ... I believe if we look at Revelation and John's message to the churches that will back up that ...

on that note ... I work on my corner of the world and how I can better serve the Lord through my denomination. Your denomination, sir, says Nazarene ... I can only assume your corner of the world "Nazarene" could use a little help, itself. Along with every other denomination who has come here to "report" on the Pentecostal denomination.

The Lord will use who He will, how He will, when He will, in spite of all the "great and wonderful" things we or our "denomination" do for the world.

It doesn't start with the denomination ... it starts with the heart ... and there's a severe lack of heart in most All the denominations on one level or another ... starting with judgement of others. I can't imagine going to the Nazarene (is there one at cf ... I actually don't know) and telling them what's wrong with their church ... I'm reminded ... take the plank out of my own eye.

... as far as the Pentecostal denomination ... we're no more than any other ................... and we're MOST CERTAINLY not less.

A great many of us have put a great deal into this forum to be a representation of the love and Truth of Christ ... it's sad to see that constantly undermined by well-meaning and sometimes not so well-meaning people.

I'm sorry ... in this forum just saying you are Pentecostal but wear a different icon or used to be Pentecostal doesn't cut it. Either you are or you aren't ... just the way it is with all the other denominations ... you are or you aren't ...

you include yourself in the problems of the Pentecostal church by using "our" Sir you are not Pentecostal in my book until you own it. And saying you are but not wearing the icon comes across to me as a way in the back door.



God bless and thank you for your effort ...

I must ask you, was there anything else in my message that moved you... other than the fact that my icon was not "pentecostal"? Or should we discuss why certain Pharisees would not accept what Jesus had to say simply because the the Disciples did not wash their hands before eating?
 
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Is it not written (Glory not that spirits are subject unto you). The heart of the holyness churches were snake handling? Glory not that which you you been given over other doctrines, for isn't it the same Idle worship as the scripture I just quoted to you in likeness?

Littlemiss is right, we need to concentrate on our own faults and cracks in our own foundation not denominational problems for that focus won't prepare you for what's ahead.

*Shaking head* No, most holiness churches did not handle snakes! Those churches were found primarily deep in the heart of the Appalachian mountians where religious traditions were held in high regard.

Please people, do not allow denominational pride derail the message being conveyed. Also, you owe it to yourslf to research the origins in Pentecostalism. You should not only understand what we believe but why we believe it and how that came about! Otherwise we are doomed to repeat the sins of the past.

The Pentecostal Church was born out of the Holiness faith. It was out of the Wesleyan Holiness belief of a second work of grace which legitimized Pentecostalism in the first place. The Holiness people were speaking in tongues long before the Asuza Street Revival!

Google the name Charles Parham...
 
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lilmissmontana

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I must ask you, was there anything else in my message that moved you... other than the fact that my icon was not "pentecostal"?

good question ...

by the same token ... I could ask you was there anything in my message that moved you other than the icon issue ...

I have nothing more to say
God bless
 
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stormdancer0

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I have to say that I have studied the history of the Church of God extensively. I have also researched the many, many small groups who have kept the Pentecostal experience alive since the first Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a few weeks after Jesus rose from the dead. I see problems with the Pentecostal denominations. But I see much more truth and openness about those errors, and effort to correct them, than I see in other denominations.

The biggest problem IMO with the OP is that it, and subsequent posts, imply that if we do not agree with him, we are uneducated, ignorant, and need to "learn about the origins of Pentecostalism." I am well educated in this area, but still do not agree with you.

Yes, Pentecostal denominations have problems. It is a man-made organization. No denomination is perfect. If you disagree with Pentecostalism, your solution is easy.

Don't be Pentecostal.
 
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A slightly revised version to help better understand the message being conveyed. This message is a call to whole hearted consecration & obedience unto the Lord. Nothing more!

"Before I address my concern, I want to assure you that I grew up in a Pentecostal church and currently attend a primarily Pentecostal church (IPHC - International Pentecostal Holiness Church - the 4th largest Pentecostal organization behind AOG, COG & UPC). I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit (with evidence of speaking on tongues) some time ago so please do not think that what I'm about to say is some sort of attack on Pentecostalism from outside of the denomination. I am merely a very concerned Pentecostal who has been a personal witness to, and to a degree guilty myself of participating in, some things in various Pentecostal circles that I feel must be adressed.

I don't know other way to adress this issue but be frank about it. Throughout all of my years of attending and visiting various Pentecostal churches as well as watching and / or listening to various Pentecostal preachers on TV, radio or the internet, it has becomer clear to me that we, as a denomination(s) over the last several decades, have become just as corrupt and self seeking as the sinful world around us.

For the most part, our churches are becoming little more than Pentecostal "safe zones", a place where we go not to help the world but to hide from it. Somewhere we can go to be with like minded people to shoot a game of basketball, take a knitting or self defense class, keep our children preoccupied with various clean and safe activities, or to fellowship with a meal or watch a dvd. All the while there are people in our communities are starving, homeless or committing scuicide.

Our services yield very little real fruit. Sure a few of us may pray in tongues while another attempts to interpret, some may feel inclined to share a very vague prophetic word with little regard to past accuracy. Others may fall flat on their backs while others may feel inclined to laugh or shout or wail. Not to mention the fact that Revival has become nothing more than a denominational pep rally which last over the course of a few consecutive evening services.

All the while our pews are filled with people eagerly anticipating the sunday afternoon sporting event or the buffet at a favorite local resturaunt. Our kids are hunkered down listeing to their ipods, playing video games on a hand held or texting on their phone while busybodies go about their ussual business of spreading the latest gossip or judging what others are wearing or whining about today's sermon.

Our alters are filled with people struggling with various forms of sickness and bondage, everything from cancer to high blood pressure to depression to anxiety to pornography to homosexuality. Our divorce rate is every bit as high, if not higher, than marrages out side of the church. Our children are having sex and getting pregnant at the same rate as those outside of the church. And our people are struggling financially just as those outside of the church.

So my concern is... IF WE ARE TRULY FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN WHY ARE WE NO DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD?

Lately I've been doing some research on some of the greatest men and women of God throughout church history. People who God used to not only spark genuine revival but also had a great impact on their country as well as the world. People like John Wesley, George Whitefield, William & Catherine Booth, Charles Finney, E.M. Bounds, Pheobee Palmer, Evan Roberts. All of whom God used in a mighty way and all of whom also believed in a second work of grace in the life of a believer, an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Although it should be noted that not one on record had ever spoken in an unknown tongue.)


What's my point? All of these great men and women of God believed that the primary manifestation of the Holy Spirit wasn't speaking in tongues at all but rather, a second work of grace in the life of a believer... a deep sense of sanctification, a direct result of the indwelling Holy Spirit. A gift from God Himself that can and does deliver and protect us from our own sinful desires and carnality! It had nothing to do with being perfect in deed but rather, walking in perfect love for the Creator and out of that love being empowered by the Holy Spirit to pick up one's cross and deny his or her flesh. A love that scripture beautifully declares fullfills the law! Something in which the vast majority of Pentecostals today have obviously lost sight of.


Want proof? How about the falls of Jim & Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggard & Todd Bentley. How about the self seeking prosperity gospel that is being preached all over christian television: "Sow a seed, reap a 100 fold harvest! Need a new car? How about a new home? Send me your money! It's guarenteed!" As if God is going to reward us for sowing a seed out of our own wordly desires and greed.

Over all, the modern Pentecostal movement (especially in the Untited States and the modernized world) have become almost as cold, complacent and useless as Cessationist Antinomians! (those who not only believe that the gifts have ceased but also they can sin all they like and still be saved). Over the last few decades we have become so centered on the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we have forgotten about the He who has given us the Spirit in the first place! We've become so obsessed with FREEDOM that we have forgotten true liberty resides in the death of our own sense of self!

My beloved brothers and sisters in Christ, while we Pentecostals have become the most sucessful protestant denomination since the reformation, I fear that we also have the potential to become the most destructive. If we are truly going to impact the world for Christ then we desperately need what Wesley, Finney and Booth had. A genuine desire to live a life of genuine love and obedience to the Father!

I encourage you to earnestly pray and seek God concerning sanctification. Sure, many hold to the idea that sanctification is ongoing process and while this is true, what if a certain degree of spiritual maturity can be achieved in this life as so many in our spiritual heritage previously believed? Please take into consideration what God has accomplished through them as evidence that there might just be something to this!

Or, you can listen to the alternative. Men like John Calvin who preached a message of abundant grace yet allowed religious pride and murder rule his actions. Please note that the fruit of our actions justify or destroy the words of our testimony!

YOU DECIDE...."
 
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Builder_Bob

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Denominational Pride? sir, I'm nondenominational pentecostal, I beleive in the pentecostal experence whole heartedly, but denominational practices, I will not get into fingure pointing for it's been said already it's "Idol worship" as the scripture says: GLORY NOT THAT SPIRITS ARE SUBJECT UNTO YOU!
Do you think your going to paint a better prophetic dispensational picture than god the Father who created all things?
Consider Abraham, do you think his faith would had faultered if he would had known the whole prophetic picture he was creating in his life? : A image of God the Father in Abraham himself, and a image of the son of God found in his son Isaac. But regaurdless of Abrahams faults God still completed his picture in him. Same goes for the church, God is still in control of things more than we will ever know.
 
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lilmissmontana

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To whom it may concern ... like those who can't see that posts have been edited.

The original poster has edited most ... if not all, the majority of his posts ... so if our answers don't seem to line up ... well ...

I have no problem with the fact that he's now also changed his icon ... that's between him and the Lord ... I'm only saying it because I brought up about him being of another denomination.

That's all I have to say ... other than I dislike immensely the attitude of the message ... message aside.
 
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The biggest problem IMO with the OP is that it, and subsequent posts, imply that if we do not agree with him, we are uneducated, ignorant, and need to "learn about the origins of Pentecostalism." I am well educated in this area, but still do not agree with you.

You could not be more wrong. The reason I began discussing the origins of Pentecostalism is because someone tried to insinuate that the Holiness faith were nothing more than uneducated snake handlers.

Why must you feel inclined to make the accusation that my reply to one refers to all? Why are you so offended in general? My only respose to you was that the rest of the world generally percieves us as just as worldly as they are.

Besides that, I have no problem with the fact that you disagree with me. I am happy to hear that you do not go to a church like the ones I have noted in my original message. You should feel blessed.
 
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To whom it may concern ... like those who can't see that posts have been edited.

The original poster has edited most ... if not all, the majority of his posts ... so if our answers don't seem to line up ... well ...

I have no problem with the fact that he's now also changed his icon ... that's between him and the Lord ... I'm only saying it because I brought up about him being of another denomination.

That's all I have to say ... other than I dislike immensely the attitude of the message ... message aside.

my posts are edited because i am a writer... I type very fast to ensure i cover all that i have to say before i lose the focal point... i then go back to correct all the typos and to make sure that the original idea has been expressed the way I originally inteded... forgive me for being my own worst critic. lol
 
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My goal here is not only to convey the message but also to recieve contsructive critique on the message itself. Where improvements can be made, where more clarity may be needed etc.

I'm currently considering writing a large essay on the subject matter.
 
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