A valid baptism....

[Bro.T]

Yes, change must take place. But, it is a change done by the Holy Spirit on the inside of a man, and does not require that first a man must outwardly come into alignment with the letter of commandments. That is where I think you are missing it.

Also, everything to God is about relationships, from Genesis to Revelations, and all of the letter of commandments. When we see it as things we must outwardly (fleshly) observe to be right with God, we have stumbled over the stumbling stone that is the Law. All of the Law points us to Christ, as Paul taught. All of the Scripture points us to a right relationship with God and other people through being made a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST.

That is what it is ALL about. It is not about judging whether someone keeps the letter of commandments or understands them like we think they should (as even our interpretations can be faulty, and no one agrees fully on how to outwardly obey the letter of commandments - there are as many opinions as people).

What is important is that someone be born of the Holy Spirit before their initial baptism, or it was a pointless outward ritual. If the Holy Spirit tugged on the original OP's heart to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, and he was relieved of the old sinful burden on his heart, and spiritually made a new creation in Christ, his baptism was good. He did not need to have any great in-depth understanding of the letter of commandments.

Furthermore, Romans 1 is a good text to show that the conscience of man has the essential portion (morality) of the Law of God. Men do not need to be theologically educated before they can do things like turn to Christ and be baptized.

Again, we have numerous examples in the book of Acts that people were immediately baptized in water after believing. They were not sent through classes to learn the letter of the law first.

Yes, change must take place. But, it is a change done by the Holy Spirit on the inside of a man, and does not require that first a man must outwardly come into alignment with the letter of commandments. That is where I think you are missing it.

I Disagree, because change starts with you. Paul said in Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Lets go to Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

This is why you have to repent first, then get baptize in the name of Jesus. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost.

You can't receive the Holy Ghost until you Repent and get baptize. Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him
14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now I put all this together so you can see what have to done to receive to Holy Ghost.
You repent get baptize in the name of Jesus and keep the commandments, then you get the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ also said in Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If it wasn't for the Law, there will be no church today, even on the wrong day of the week (sunday)!!!!!!!

 

[DavidPresently]

I Disagree, because change starts with you. Paul said in Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Lets go to Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

This is why you have to repent first, then get baptize in the name of Jesus. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost.

You can't receive the Holy Ghost until you Repent and get baptize. Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him
14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now I put all this together so you can see what have to done to receive to Holy Ghost.
You repent get baptize in the name of Jesus and keep the commandments, then you get the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ also said in Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If it wasn't for the Law, there will be no church today, even on the wrong day of the week (sunday)!!!!!!!

Of course we repent first and then are baptized. I have not disputed or disagreed with that. There is a difference of hearing the Gospel message and the Holy Spirit tugging at a heart to repent and turn to Jesus for salvation, and then being baptized, compared to what you propose; which is that someone needs to know more thorough doctrine about things before they can understand salvation and baptism enough to truly do it right.

That is absurd based on the examples we have in the book of Acts alone, all of whom received the Gospel readily and were baptized quickly, without going through a long period of time learning Scripture.

The Holy Spirit initiates someone coming to Christ by giving them the invitation and drawing them to repentance to submit to Christ. Some choose to respond in the affirmative to this and others choose to resist at that time. Man does not initiate his salvation, God has always, at every step, from Creation to Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, to the work at the cross, to the Holy Spirit moving on a sinner to repent and turn to Christ, taken the initiative to offer man Life. Man is simply the responder - choosing to say yes or no to that offer.

You also for some reason think I'm against the Law, which I have no idea why unless you've decided all Christians are lawless. I have said nothing against the Law of God in my posts. The letter of the law did and still has purpose. The fact that I think you misunderstand the purpose of the law does not mean I think it useless or without purpose.

The most important purpose of the letter of the law given through Moses is to point to Christ, acting as a tutor to children, illustrating God's plan and will through types and shadows. This understanding of the purpose of the law is a big focus of the letters of Paul and the book of Hebrews.

It is not necessary to physically keep every commandment of the law perfectly on earth for someone to come to Christ or continue in Christ. Knowing such, which is clearly taught in the New Testament, is not putting down the law or making it useless. We do not abolish the law by our faith, but establish it. However, we establish it for the NT believer within proper context and purpose. It is not about legalism as you seem to be bent toward.

I once was also and understand your perspective. I used to wear tzit-tzit, wouldn't say certain English names or words but replaced them with Hebrew, and would not allow pictures or videos (images) in my house, or to be taken of my family and I. We followed the letter as strictly as it can be followed. We did so for a period of 3.5 years because the Spirit led us to. No, we did not know it would end up being 3.5 years when we started, and no we did not know why the Spirit was leading us to do it, and yes during the process we thought we were being led to do such to make us more holy and righteous to God.

Boy were we wrong. That was not why the Spirit had us go through that wilderness journey for that time period. He was teaching us, however, by the law of Moses, and we are super glad he did.

One thing I believe about most of Christianity is that there is a great lack of understanding because they have never studied or acted out the letter of the law to a degree to be doers of the Word and become understanding. I recommend every Christian learn from the law of Moses. However, people cannot become more righteous or holy by such, as you are as righteous as possible by the Blood of the Lamb and set-apart the first day in Christ as at any other time. If such could be gained by the law, Jesus died in vain.

Peace,

 

[Bro.T]

Of course we repent first and then are baptized. I have not disputed or disagreed with that. There is a difference of hearing the Gospel message and the Holy Spirit tugging at a heart to repent and turn to Jesus for salvation, and then being baptized, compared to what you propose; which is that someone needs to know more thorough doctrine about things before they can understand salvation and baptism enough to truly do it right.

That is absurd based on the examples we have in the book of Acts alone, all of whom received the Gospel readily and were baptized quickly, without going through a long period of time learning Scripture.

The Holy Spirit initiates someone coming to Christ by giving them the invitation and drawing them to repentance to submit to Christ. Some choose to respond in the affirmative to this and others choose to resist at that time. Man does not initiate his salvation, God has always, at every step, from Creation to Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, to the work at the cross, to the Holy Spirit moving on a sinner to repent and turn to Christ, taken the initiative to offer man Life. Man is simply the responder - choosing to say yes or no to that offer.

You also for some reason think I'm against the Law, which I have no idea why unless you've decided all Christians are lawless. I have said nothing against the Law of God in my posts. The letter of the law did and still has purpose. The fact that I think you misunderstand the purpose of the law does not mean I think it useless or without purpose.

The most important purpose of the letter of the law given through Moses is to point to Christ, acting as a tutor to children, illustrating God's plan and will through types and shadows. This understanding of the purpose of the law is a big focus of the letters of Paul and the book of Hebrews.

It is not necessary to physically keep every commandment of the law perfectly on earth for someone to come to Christ or continue in Christ. Knowing such, which is clearly taught in the New Testament, is not putting down the law or making it useless. We do not abolish the law by our faith, but establish it. However, we establish it for the NT believer within proper context and purpose. It is not about legalism as you seem to be bent toward.

I once was also and understand your perspective. I used to wear tzit-tzit, wouldn't say certain English names or words but replaced them with Hebrew, and would not allow pictures or videos (images) in my house, or to be taken of my family and I. We followed the letter as strictly as it can be followed. We did so for a period of 3.5 years because the Spirit led us to. No, we did not know it would end up being 3.5 years when we started, and no we did not know why the Spirit was leading us to do it, and yes during the process we thought we were being led to do such to make us more holy and righteous to God.

Boy were we wrong. That was not why the Spirit had us go through that wilderness journey for that time period. He was teaching us, however, by the law of Moses, and we are super glad he did.

One thing I believe about most of Christianity is that there is a great lack of understanding because they have never studied or acted out the letter of the law to a degree to be doers of the Word and become understanding. I recommend every Christian learn from the law of Moses. However, people cannot become more righteous or holy by such, as you are as righteous as possible by the Blood of the Lamb and set-apart the first day in Christ as at any other time. If such could be gained by the law, Jesus died in vain.

Peace,

I agree the Holy Spirit do have to draw a person first. I enjoy reading your post. One part I didn't quite understand.

and set-apart the first day in Christ as at any other time. If such could be gained by the law, Jesus died in vain.