A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

fhansen · Oct 25, 2023

Strong in Him said:
What "truth" do some Christians possess that others don't?

If becoming and remaining right in the eyes of God (being justified) is important, then we have some significant differences, even between Protestants right off the bat. Jesus is the truth because in His person, by everything He said and did, He reveals the true nature and will of God. So, what is that will?

Does God want our wills involved at all in our salvation, or not? Does He just hit us over the head and regenerate us all at once, without regard to our wills, or not? Does baptism play any real role in regeneration? Does justification amount to simply the remission of sin and imputation of righteousness or does justification also consist of real righteousness now given to believers, with which we work out our salvation as we enter and remain in communion with God? Once saved are we always saved, or is it incumbent upon us to be vigilant, to persevere, to be overcoming sin by the Spirit as we remain in Him, and therefore under His grace?

These and many others are important questions which can affect the way we live and our relationship with Him.

Strong in Him · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
One would like to have a charitable view of people who have done what you say but it is hard to do that. If you knew what you were leaving, chose to leave it, and then to oppose it one cannot hold out much hope. Deliberate apostasy is a problematic stance to take, what you say is, if it is true, deliberate apostasy.

Apostasy would be abandoning one's religion - i.e. Christianity - and therefore, the Lord himself.
Ceasing to attend a particular church is not apostasy.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 25, 2023

Strong in Him said:
Apostasy would be abandoning one's religion - i.e. Christianity - and therefore, the Lord himself.
Ceasing to attend a particular church is not apostasy.

I do not think that is a sufficient definition.

ozso · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Predestination, baptismal regeneration, one saved always saved, losing one's salvation, receiving or rejecting sacred tradition, prayer and intercession, Paid ministers or only unpaid ones ...

I see differences along those lines between what various Catholic priests teach. From what I've heard a lot of Catholics reject Vatican II and there are those who say the last true Pope of the Catholic Church was Pius XII etc. Some priests right now are saying Pope Francis isn't even a Catholic. And I think it's likely there's a lot more division than what little I'm aware of.

Strong in Him · Oct 25, 2023

fhansen said:
If becoming and remaining right in the eyes of God (being justified) is important, then we have some significant differences, even between Protestants right off the bat. Jesus is the truth because in His person, by everything He said and did, He reveals the true nature and will of God. So, what is that will?

John 6:40.

fhansen said:
Does God want our wills involved at all in our salvation, or not?

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus, Romans 6:23.
We need to receive that gift and follow Jesus, as he invited us to.

fhansen said:
Does baptism play any real role in regeneration? Does justification amount to simply the remission of sin and imputation of righteousness or does justification also consist of real righteousness now given to believers, with which we work out our salvation as we enter and remain in communion with God? Once saved are we always saved, or is it incumbent upon us to be vigilant, to persevere, to be overcoming sin by the Spirit as we remain in Him, and therefore under His grace?

These and many others are important questions which can affect the way we live and our relationship with Him.

They may affect the way we live but they don't change the truth. Which is that we are all sinners, cannot reconcile ourselves to God and are/were facing eternal death. But that forgiveness, eternal life and a new start are possible through Jesus; man and God, who came to die so that we could become God's children.

I'm sure there are Christians in some countries who have never heard of justification, baptismal regeneration, once saved always saved and other arguments; they just love God.
And look at how the church is growing in some counties where they have few resources. Compared with the West, which has a plethora of resources yet is embroiled in theological arguments.

Strong in Him · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not think that is a sufficient definition.

The dictionary does.

apostasy

noun,plural a·pos·ta·sies.

a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

apostasy, n.
Abandonment or renunciation of one's religious faith or moral allegiance.

ozso · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not think that is a sufficient definition.

Then what is please?

Halbhh · Oct 25, 2023

fhansen said:
I’m speaking about which theology is right, not the opinions of individuals, which may vary widely. Individuals do not define Catholicism, for example; the Catholic Church does so, and so it’s teachings are the standard Im comparing other beliefs with. And those teachings can be found in the catechism of the Catholic Church. And those teachings do not depend on Scripture alone, but on the faith as received prior to the New Testament even being written.

Not at all. Going by Scripture alone people have agreed on heretical or erroneous viewpoints. JW theology comes to mind, as well as the Reformed theology on justification. At the same time new denominations continue to spring up, as they did at the beginning of the Reformation, based on disagreement over Scriptural interpretations! Luther feared and predicted that this could happen!

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura has produced more variety, as in confusion, of beliefs than any other source! That’s why a church, with a central authority given by God, guided by the Holy Spirit, is essential in maintaining unity of beliefs, regardless of whether any individuals, including popes, agree with it or not.

Perhaps it seemed as if I was only repeating some old familiar theological argument between Lutherans and Catholics? ( "Sola Scriptura"?...)

I was not doing that.

Not even a bit.

I wonder if you could read my post with a new assumption: that I'm not preaching sola scriptura, and try to notice what I'm saying more fully/exactly?

For instance, you should notice the most important topic I brought up is the early church, and Romans 14, for instance....

What does Romans 14 say to us? (it's very good to read it before responding though)

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 25, 2023

Strong in Him said:
The dictionary does.

The dictionary that I use says

Apostasy is a noun that refers to the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle 1. It can also be used to describe the act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognise a religious faith 2. The word is derived from the Greek word ‘apostasia’, which means ‘defection’ 1.

Here’s an example of how the word can be used in a sentence: “The execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism” 1.

tampasteve · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
One would like to have a charitable view of people who have done what you say but it is hard to do that. If you knew what you were leaving, chose to leave it, and then to oppose it one cannot hold out much hope. Deliberate apostasy is a problematic stance to take, what you say is, if it is true, deliberate apostasy.

Deliberate apostasy from the RCC, but not from Christianity.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 25, 2023

tampasteve said:
Deliberate apostasy from the RCC, but not from Christianity.

From my perspective these are the same thing; Catholicism is Christianity.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 25, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
Then what is please?

Apostasy is a noun that refers to the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle 1. It can also be used to describe the act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith 2. The word is derived from the Greek word ‘apostasia’, which means ‘defection’ 1.

Here’s an example of how the word can be used in a sentence: “The execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism” 1.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 25, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
From what I've heard

What you have heard ? Try hearing what is true.

tampasteve · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
From my perspective these are the same thing; Catholicism is Christianity.

I know, but as I said, I don't take any stock in the RCC's teachings on that matter. the RCC can claim something if it likes, but that simply does not automatically make it so. I don't stay up at night worrying for my soul since I left the RCC. After life changes, study and prayer, I simply believe the RCC has it wrong on a lot of doctrine and dogma. That's not to say that there is not a lot right or not a lot of beauty or wonderful people in the RCC, because there are.

Xeno.of.athens · Oct 25, 2023

tampasteve said:
I don't take any stock in the RCC's teachings on that matter.

Okay, that really ends the discussion, doesn't it? You'll ignore whatever is said from a Catholic perspective.

tampasteve · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Okay, that really ends the discussion, doesn't it? You'll ignore whatever is said from a Catholic perspective.

Yes, but not from an antagonistic or angry way - and I do truly apologize if it came off that way. Honestly, I LOVE the RCC. I love the great men I was associated with in the KoC, I love the priests that I worked with, I love the parish I used to attend. But at this time I am at where I am at and the RCC is at where it is at. That's fine, I am at peace with that.

Also, disagreeing isn't ignoring. I can disagree but listen and come to understand a different viewpoint. Ignoring implies an uncaring or flippant attiude, which is not the case.

Strong in Him · Oct 25, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
The dictionary that I use says

Apostasy is a noun that refers to the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle 1. It can also be used to describe the act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognise a religious faith 2. The word is derived from the Greek word ‘apostasia’, which means ‘defection’ 1.

Here’s an example of how the word can be used in a sentence: “The execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism” 1.

Yes.
But, loathe as you may be to admit it, leaving the Catholic church is not the same as abandoning, or renouncing, the Christian faith.
Catholicism is not a faith; Christianity is.

fhansen · Oct 25, 2023

Strong in Him said:
John 6:40.

Ok? And have you fleshed out what that means, so that His whole will is understood? Is this His will?
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours." Matt 6:14-15

How might those be related to believing in Him?

Strong in Him said:
hey may affect the way we live but they don't change the truth. Which is that we are all sinners, cannot reconcile ourselves to God and are/were facing eternal death. But that forgiveness, eternal life and a new start are possible through Jesus; man and God, who came to die so that we could become God's children.

The way we live will affect our salvation. For those who wish to deny this traditional, historical Christian belief, they can fortunately still read Scripture:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom, 2:13

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

So you see that becoming a child of God implies more than the forgiveness of sins, but also certain responsibilities, to remain in Him, born out by how we live our lives including the overcoming of sin.
"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

Because justification also includes making us new creations, washed, cleansed, and now empowered to do God's will, finally, the right way, His way, under grace. We'll be judged at the end of the day on what we've done with what we've been given. Reference the Parable of the Talents for more light shed on this. The church can actually put it all in proper perspective succinctly, in her teachings:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

So I'll ask again,
"Does baptism play any real role in regeneration? Does justification amount to simply the remission of sin and imputation of righteousness or does justification also consist of real righteousness now given to believers, with which we work out our salvation as we enter and remain in communion with God? Once saved are we always saved, or is it incumbent upon us to be vigilant, to persevere, to be overcoming sin by the Spirit as we remain in Him, and therefore under His grace?

These and many others are important questions which can affect the way we live and our relationship with Him."

fhansen · Oct 25, 2023

Halbhh said:
And a solution.

Notice the fine detail -- even inside the most unified churches people will disagree on this or that. (you learn as you listen to many) Even in the Catholic Church, which itself (like all churches or any one church) visibly having a lot of " many disagreeing with each other ". (websites are devoted to reporting all of this endless disagreement)

How could that be otherwise, since we are not all mature equally.

So, we are given Romans 14.
Reading and hearing it helps us notice how humans will always disagree with each other and that's ok -- that it's ok is the point. (Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14 - New International Version)

As you see in the chapter, this was already the norm from the first, in the earliest church, many already had these big disagreements. In like 60AD already.

So, when we talk about " disagreeing with each other based on Scripture alone," -- it's.... really just humans " disagreeing with each other ".

But....consider: really listening to God's words to us with faith is actually a most key, primary help against all that normal tendency to disagree.

After all, without the inspired Word, we have only individual's opinions in contest. One person claiming this is the only Truth, and another a different thing.

Like you'd see reported anywhere in dozens of articles a year about any large church body.

Bishops contesting viewpoints with each other.

Scripture -- that is, the literal Words from God -- is the only thing that saves us from only having different thoughts from one another, and nothing to unify with...

(After all, no 2 humans on Earth think just the same (not when you get into details)).

Scripture is how we can all agree on many crucial things.

So, to the best possible, I want to help people to remember their awe and love for the Words from God....

To just listen, without needing to already agree on everything.

I really don't see where that changed anything. We have to understand that God reveals Himself by His word, which consisted of both teachings written and handed down orally, incidentally, for a reason, so that we'd know His will, knowledge that is critically important for man to know. So while individual humans often disagree, they, as individual, private interpreters don't necessarily agree any better over the meaning of Scripture.

Halbhh · Oct 25, 2023

fhansen said:
I really don't see where that changed anything. We have to understand that God reveals Himself by His word, which consisted of both teachings written and handed down orally, incidentally, for a reason, so that we'd know His will, knowledge that is critically important for man to know. So while individual humans often disagree, they, as individual, private interpreters don't necessarily agree any better over the meaning of Scripture.

That's right, and Romans 14 definitely commands us (especially if we notice the full stakes in 1rst Corinthians 8) to never try to demand someone agree with all of our doctrines. Even things we think are totally what scripture says, like how it says over and over to keep the Sabbath on a certain day.... Romans 14 says 'forgettaboutit' and just love them, and totally be comfortable they entirely disagree with you about doctrine X....

(ok, yes, I wrote that a bit hyperbolically

A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

Oldbie

Great is thy faithfulness

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

✦

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

apostasy​

apostasy, n.​

✦

Everything You say is Life to me

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will be saved

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will be saved

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will be saved

Great is thy faithfulness

Oldbie

Oldbie

Everything You say is Life to me

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