• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,473
2,388
Perth
✟203,845.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
there aren't any teachings on Mary in the Gospels or NT.
It would be very difficult to find more convincing evidence that a post is written without benefit of having read the gospels than the statement above. Take the time to read this:
Since, indeed, many have attempted to set in order a narrative of the things that have been completed among us, just as they have been handed on to those of us who from the beginning saw the same and were ministers of the word, so it seemed good to me also, having diligently followed everything from the beginning, to write to you, in an orderly manner, most excellent Theophilus, so that you might know the truthfulness of those words by which you have been instructed. There was, in the days of Herod, king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the section of Abijah, and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Now they were both just before God, progressing in all of the commandments and the justifications of the Lord without blame. And they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they both had become advanced in years. Then it happened that, when he was exercising the priesthood before God, in the order of his section, according to the custom of the priesthood, the lot fell so that he would offer incense, entering into the temple of the Lord. And the entire multitude of the people was praying outside, at the hour of incense. Then there appeared to him an Angel of the Lord, standing at the right of the altar of incense. And upon seeing him, Zechariah was disturbed, and fear fell over him. But the Angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth shall bear a son to you. And you shall call his name John. And there will be joy and exultation for you, and many will rejoice in his nativity. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother"s womb. And he will convert many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go before him with the spirit and power of Elijah, so that he may turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and the incredulous to the prudence of the just, so as to prepare for the Lord a completed people." And Zechariah said to the Angel: "How may I know this? For I am elderly, and my wife is advanced in years." And in response, the Angel said to him: "I am Gabriel, who stands before God, and I have been sent to speak to you, and to proclaim these things to you. And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak, until the day on which these things shall be, because you have not believed my words, which will be fulfilled in their time." And the people were waiting for Zechariah. And they wondered why he was being delayed in the temple. Then, when he came out, he was unable to speak to them. And they realized that he had seen a vision in the temple. And he was making signs to them, but he remained mute. And it happened that, after the days of his office were completed, he went away to his house. Then, after those days, his wife Elizabeth conceived, and she hid herself for five months, saying: "For the Lord did this for me, at the time when he decided to take away my reproach among men." Then, in the sixth month, the Angel Gabriel was sent by God, to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the name of the virgin was Mary. And upon entering, the Angel said to her: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women." And when she had heard this, she was disturbed by his words, and she considered what kind of greeting this might be. And the Angel said to her: "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found grace with God. Behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and you shall bear a son, and you shall call his name: JESUS. He will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. And he will reign in the house of Jacob for eternity. And his kingdom shall have no end." Then Mary said to the Angel, "How shall this be done, since I do not know man?" And in response, the Angel said to her: "The Holy Spirit will pass over you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. And because of this also, the Holy One who will be born of you shall be called the Son of God. And behold, your cousin Elizabeth has herself also conceived a son, in her old age. And this is the sixth month for her who is called barren. For no word will be impossible with God." Then Mary said: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word." And the Angel departed from her. And in those days, Mary, rising up, traveled quickly into the hill country, to a city of Judah. And she entered into the house of Zechariah, and she greeted Elizabeth. And it happened that, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this concern me, so that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, as the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed are you who believed, for the things that were spoken to you by the Lord shall be accomplished." And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord. And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour. For he has looked with favor on the humility of his handmaid. For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed. For he who is great has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation to generations for those who fear him. He has accomplished powerful deeds with his arm. He has scattered the arrogant in the intentions of their heart. He has deposed the powerful from their seat, and he has exalted the humble. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty. He has taken up his servant Israel, mindful of his mercy, just as he spoke to our fathers: to Abraham and to his offspring forever." Then Mary stayed with her for about three months. And she returned to her own house. Now the time for Elizabeth to give birth arrived, and she brought forth a son. And her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had magnified his mercy with her, and so they congratulated her. And it happened that, on the eighth day, they arrived to circumcise the boy, and they called him by his father"s name, Zechariah. And in response, his mother said: "Not so. Instead, he shall be called John." And they said to her, "But there is no one among your relatives who is called by that name." Then they made signs to his father, as to what he wanted him to be called. And requesting a writing tablet, he wrote, saying: "His name is John." And they all wondered. Then, at once, his mouth was opened, and his tongue loosened, and he spoke, blessing God. And fear fell upon all of their neighbors. And all these words were made known throughout all the hill country of Judea. And all those who heard it stored it up in their heart, saying: "What do you think this boy will be?" And indeed, the hand of the Lord was with him. And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit. And he prophesied, saying: "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel. For he has visited and has wrought the redemption of his people. And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us, in the house of David his servant, just as he spoke by the mouth of his holy Prophets, who are from ages past: salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all those who hate us, to accomplish mercy with our fathers, and to call to mind his holy testament, the oath, which he swore to Abraham, our father, that he would grant to us, so that, having been freed from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear, in holiness and in justice before him, throughout all our days. And you, child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High. For you will go before the face of the Lord: to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people for the remission of their sins, through the heart of the mercy of our God, by which, descending from on high, he has visited us, to illuminate those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, and to direct our feet in the way of peace." And the child grew, and he was strengthened in spirit. And he was in the wilderness, until the day of his manifestation to Israel.
Luke 1:1-80 CPDV2009
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,026
10,011
NW England
✟1,298,003.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It would be very difficult to find more convincing evidence that a post is written without benefit of having read the gospels than the statement above.
If you'd read my previous posts you would know that I was talking specifically about Mary's perpetual virginity and being queen of heaven.
There are no teachings about these in the Gospels.
 
Reactions: ozso
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,001
4,007
✟395,394.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
But there aren't any teachings on Mary in the Gospels or NT.
And I'm sure there would be if Jesus had taught it and it was important.
Why should anyone presume that? Why do we insist on the bible being some sort of catechism, fully and clearly explaining all aspects of the faith,? That simply isn't what it is. The bible is an assemblage of various writings that were written for various reasons by various peoples and those who assembled it worked with whatever they had. But the church also possessed its teachings before those writings were penned and apart from them. And arguably the vast majority of believers down through the centuries have been illiterate. They couldn't have read the bible for themselves even if the printing press happened to be invented earlier, affording access to more people.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Alright. My understanding is that the writings were compiled based on whether or not they were considered inspired, correct, orthodox, etc, but not that they necessarily exhaustive in their teachings.
It seems highly unlikely that anything of crucial importance was left completely unsaid. And it seems to me that it's been established that all the extra stuff about Mary developed as a means of combating the christological heresies that were a problem in the fourth century.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,001
4,007
✟395,394.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Its about much more than that. How did the early church think about baptismal regeneration, a matter of soteriology? What did they think regarding the deity of Christ. What about the importance of the Eucharist and the real Presence and the nature of justification, OSAS, and the role of man's will in his salvation. Take a close look at he early fathers and you'll find virtually unanimous agreement. Not so with Protestantism. How come?
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What teachings from Christ and his Apostles did the church possess before they were penned by the Apostles?
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,001
4,007
✟395,394.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What teachings from Christ and his Apostles did the church possess before they were penned by the Apostles?
That might be a better question for you. What teachings did Paul use to explain the OT to the Bereans? Which teachings did Philip use to explain it to the Ethiopian Eunuch? What did the apostles preach before the new testament was laid down in writing since the first gospel was written at least 40 years after the death of Christ with other writings up to 70 years later?
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,026
10,011
NW England
✟1,298,003.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why should anyone presume that?
Because Jesus was God, came to show us what God is like, teach us about him, his will, his Gospel and his kingdom.
If Jesus didn't teach it, it wasn't that important. If the Gospel writers didn't include it because he taught it to them at some point; either it wasn't a doctrine or it was not important.
Why do we insist on the bible being some sort of catechism, fully and clearly explaining all aspects of the faith,? That simply isn't what it is.
The Bible is the word of God - written about God, by God. We know what God said, what he taught, what he is like, what his will is etc etc through the Bible.
The Bible also teaches us about Jesus - whose coming, ministry, death, resurrection was prophesied in the OT and presented in the Gospels. Jesus is THE Word of God - his living, eternal and final word. There is no salvation or reconciliation with God apart from Jesus.

In matters of doctrine, the Bible is the final authority. So when a group like the Moonies say "Rev Moon met Jesus on a mountain, Jesus told him that he had failed on earth, and he wanted Moon to be the second Messiah" - we reject that as heretical. None of that is found in the Gospels/Epistles, we do not believe in a Saviour who failed. Because Moon said "God told me .....", but presented something that is not in Scripture we can say, with confidence, "no, he didn't."

So I'm sorry but I don't believe you can present teaching that is not in the Gospels, was not taught by Jesus or the Apostles and then say; oh but that doesn't matter; the Bible doesn't say everything and it was handed down to us by oral tradition.
At best, that sounds like "we have some sort of secret knowledge which you don't know,", which is Gnosticism. At worst, that is a statement that we don't need to rely on the Bible, we can believe what we like.


Jesus and his disciples had the OT only.
The OT contains the accounts of creation, the giving of God's law and covenant and tells the story of how those who were rescued from Egypt became God's people. It teaches us what God said through his prophets - what he said about their immediate situation/predicament and what he would do in the future. The phrases "thus saith the Lord", "This is what the Lord says", "the Lord says, tells us, wants from you ....." are found all over the OT. Jesus' coming, ministry and death are shown in the OT; the Holy Spirit is in the OT.
Jesus quoted often from the OT and referred to its characters. After his resurrection he explained what Moses, the prophets and Psalms said about him and how they spoke of his coming.

The Gospels of Matthew and John were written by Apostles who had been with Jesus. The main source for Mark's Gospel was St Peter, and one of Luke's sources was Mary, the mother of Jesus. Before he ascended to heaven, Jesus spent 40 days with his Apostles teaching them about the kingdom. He had already said that his Holy Spirit would live in them, reminding them of all he had taught.
The Gospel writers wrote their accounts so that future generations would know about Jesus, who he was, why he came and what he taught.

When the NT was compiled, only the books, epistles and teachings that were from the Apostles, or faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, were included.
Again, you are expecting us to believe a doctrine that was not taught, nor penned, by Jesus or the Apostles. Are you claiming some special knowledge about these things; that Jesus secretly taught them to Peter/John/James but that none of them taught or recorded them?
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,629
5,515
73
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟584,367.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Since, indeed, many have attempted to set in order a narrative of the things that have been completed among us, just as they have been handed on to those of us who from the beginning saw the same and were ministers of the word, so it seemed good to me also, having diligently followed everything from the beginning, to write to you, in an orderly manner, most excellent Theophilus, so that you might know the truthfulness of those words by which you have been instructed.

This is the opening of Luke's Gospel addressed enigmatically to Theophilus, who may be a real person, or perhaps to all those who are lovers of God.

There was, in the days of Herod, king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the section of Abijah, and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Now they were both just before God, progressing in all of the commandments and the justifications of the Lord without blame. And they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they both had become advanced in years. Then it happened that, when he was exercising the priesthood before God, in the order of his section, according to the custom of the priesthood, the lot fell so that he would offer incense, entering into the temple of the Lord. And the entire multitude of the people was praying outside, at the hour of incense. Then there appeared to him an Angel of the Lord, standing at the right of the altar of incense. And upon seeing him, Zechariah was disturbed, and fear fell over him. But the Angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth shall bear a son to you. And you shall call his name John. And there will be joy and exultation for you, and many will rejoice in his nativity.

This is the historic setting in terms of Herod's rule and then sets the setting surrounding the lead-up to the birth of John the Baptizer.

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will convert many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go before him with the spirit and power of Elijah, so that he may turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and the incredulous to the prudence of the just, to prepare for the Lord a completed people." And Zechariah said to the Angel: "How may I know this? For I am elderly, and my wife is advanced in years." And in response, the Angel said to him: "I am Gabriel, who stands before God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to proclaim these things to you. And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak, until the day on which these things shall be, because you have not believed my words, which will be fulfilled in their time." And the people were waiting for Zechariah. And they wondered why he was being delayed in the temple. Then, when he came out, he was unable to speak to them. And they realized that he had seen a vision in the temple. And he was making signs to them, but he remained mute. And it happened that, after the days of his office were completed, he went away to his house. Then, after those days, his wife Elizabeth conceived, and she hid herself for five months, saying: "For the Lord did this for me, at the time when he decided to take away my reproach among men."

Luke now moves to the account of the dealings between Zechariah and the Angel Gabriel, in a narrative that has striking overtones of the Abraham and Sarah narrative in the Old Testament.

Then, in the sixth month, the Angel Gabriel was sent by God, to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the name of the virgin was Mary. And upon entering, the Angel said to her: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women." And when she had heard this, she was disturbed by his words, and she considered what kind of greeting this might be. And the Angel said to her: "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found grace with God. Behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and you shall bear a son, and you shall call his name: JESUS. He will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. And he will reign in the house of Jacob for eternity. And his kingdom shall have no end." Then Mary said to the Angel, "How shall this be done, since I do not know man?" And in response, the Angel said to her: "The Holy Spirit will pass over you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. And because of this also, the Holy One who will be born of you shall be called the Son of God. And behold, your cousin Elizabeth has herself also conceived a son, in her old age. And this is the sixth month for her who is called barren. For no word will be impossible with God."

Mary now enters Luke's account in the narrative and the astonishing greeting from the Angel Gabriel. The clear and moving force here is that God is the activist in this endeavour, though, in the next passage, we have the most resounding yes of all humanity to God which means Mary on behalf of all of us is an active participant in the divine plan of redemption.

Then Mary said: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word." And the Angel departed from her. And in those days, Mary, rising up, travelled quickly into the hill country, to a city in Judah. And she entered into the house of Zechariah, and she greeted Elizabeth. And it happened that, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant leapt in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this concern me, so that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, as the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the infant in my womb leapt for joy. And blessed are you who believed, for the things that were spoken to you by the Lord shall be accomplished."
Now Mary travels to visit her cousin, and it is the unborn John the Baptizer and his Mother Elizabeth who are acknowledging Mary as Mother of the Lord.
And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord. And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour, for he has looked with favour on the humility of his handmaid. For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed. For he who is great has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation to generation for those who fear him. He has accomplished powerful deeds with his arm. He has scattered the arrogant in the intentions of their heart. He has deposed the powerful from their seat, and he has exalted the humble. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty. He has taken up his servant Israel, mindful of his mercy, just as he spoke to our fathers: to Abraham and to his offspring forever."

So here we have Mary's second and considered response to God, a song of praise to God for mercy and justice. Mary here is the blessed, not the blesser, and God's mercy is for all the seed of Abraham, and in our age we can see how challenging that is in the semetic struggles of the Levant.

Then Mary stayed with her for about three months. And she returned to her own house.

I find the detail fascinating. Mary does not stay for the birth of the Baptizer, though clearly (if my boy-maths is any good) it must have been just around the corner.

Now the time for Elizabeth to give birth arrived, and she brought forth a son. And her neighbours and relatives heard that the Lord had magnified his mercy with her, and so they congratulated her. And it happened that, on the eighth day, they arrived to circumcise the boy, and they called him by his father"s name, Zechariah. And in response, his mother said: "Not so. Instead, he shall be called John." And they said to her, "But there is no one among your relatives who is called by that name." Then they made signs to his father, as to what he wanted him to be called. And requesting a writing tablet, he wrote, saying: "His name is John." And they all wondered. Then, at once, his mouth was opened, and his tongue loosened, and he spoke, blessing God. And fear fell upon all of their neighbours. And all these words were made known throughout all the hill country of Judea. And all those who heard it stored it up in their heart, saying: "What do you think this boy will be?" And indeed, the hand of the Lord was with him. And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is about the birth of John the Baptizer and how he came by his name.

And he prophesied, saying: "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel. For he has visited and has wrought the redemption of his people. And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us, in the house of David his servant, just as he spoke by the mouth of his holy Prophets, who are from ages past: salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all those who hate us, to accomplish mercy with our fathers, and to call to mind his holy testament, the oath, which he swore to Abraham, our father, that he would grant to us, so that, having been freed from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear, in holiness and in justice before him, throughout all our days. And you, child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High. For you will go before the face of the Lord: to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people for the remission of their sins, through the heart of the mercy of our God, by which, descending from on high, he has visited us, to illuminate those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, and to direct our feet in the way of peace."

This is Zechariah's response to the birth of his son and foreshadows the role of his son.

And the child grew, and he was strengthened in spirit. And he was in the wilderness, until the day of his manifestation to Israel.

This is John the Baptist.

So while the 1st chapter of Luke's Gospel does address the matter of Mary, it is not long on a great deal of the extensive Marian theology that has been discussed. In Luke's Gospel Mary always points to Jesus.

This point is not lost in Church History and the Council of Ephesus which affirmed the title of Mary as Theotokos was not a council discussing Marian Doctrine, but rather Christology. They sought the answer the question that Luke sought to answer, and which we all must answer 'who is Jesus?'
 
Reactions: ozso
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It's doubtful they taught anything outside of what they put in writing.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why should anyone presume that? Why do we insist on the bible being some sort of catechism, fully and clearly explaining all aspects of the faith?
From what I've seen the catechism is heavily dependent upon the gospels and the epistles. I keep seeing the bible being downplayed as much as possible, yet the vast majority of Christian/Catholic teaching is founded on what's contained in the bible. Put another way, Catholocism for the most part is just as dependent upon the bible as Protestantism is. Even the Catholic doctrines Protestants consider unbiblical are still founded upon and rooted in what's written in the bible.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,001
4,007
✟395,394.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's doubtful they taught anything outside of what they put in writing.
Well, not according to what they put in writing:
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." 2 Thess 2:15 ESV
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15 NIV

And, again, why should it be otherwise? The church has done just fine in teaching the faith for centuries. beginning at the beginning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,001
4,007
✟395,394.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The church recognizes two streams of revelation, Scripture and Tradition. So, of course you'll see quotes from Scripture, along with quotes from a whole host of theologians and councils and fathers and documents down through the centuries.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It seems it's not so with Catholocism either since 4th-5th century onward writings are often pointed to, rather than anything written within the 1st-3rd century.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The church recognizes two streams of revelation, Scripture and Tradition. So, of course you'll see quotes from Scripture, along with quotes from a whole host of theologians and councils and fathers and documents down through the centuries.
I understand that. But the bulk of Catholic tradition is based on and rooted in scripture. Scripture isn't based upon or rooted in Catholic tradition, it's the other way around. Without Catholic tradition, there would still be scripture. Whereas without scripture, there would be no Catholic tradition. Quotes from a whole host of theologians and councils and fathers and documents down through the centuries, are all founded upon and rooted in what's written in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's is a foundational verse I see used to support things Catholocism came up with and or established hundreds of years after the apostles. But what seems to always get overlooked is taught by us. As in taught by us original Apostles. So ironically 2 Thess 2:15 actually knocks down latter traditions, rather than support them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Mariology is one way of establishing Christology. However mariology consists of a lot of surmising. Whereas Christology can be established in what Christ said about himself, what the apostles said about Christ, and in prophecy about Christ that was fulfilled. All of which is directly stated in scripture. Even the Pharisees established Christology in John 5:18 by saying "making himself equal to God".

So it's difficult to understand how Mariology basically became the primary fundamental way of establishing Christology. To the point where basically there can't be Christology without Mariology. That Mariology is that critically important to Christology. Despite the mountainload of scripture that establishes Christology outside of Mariology.
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,629
5,515
73
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟584,367.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Yet, through Mary God became Human. To establish Christology without Mary to my mind creates a wealth of problems. If you want to get your doctrine of the atonement sorted, I think you have to start with the incarnation, and I don't think you can have a meaningful approach to the Incarnation without Mary. Mary always points to Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,473
2,388
Perth
✟203,845.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
It's doubtful they taught anything outside of what they put in writing.
Nonsense, saint John says, "there are many other things that Jesus did. If they were all written down one by one, I suppose that the whole world could not hold the books that would be written."
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,248
15,320
PNW
✟984,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I agree and I think what's written in the gospel about it is sufficient.
 
Upvote 0